Was sin inevitable?

[LynnDel]

We teach, if I understand it correctly, that if only Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, the world would not be in the mess it is today. Was it possible for them to have remained sinless? If they hadn't sinned at the moment they did, was it inevitable that they would have sinned eventually? If they never sinned, how would the great controversy have been concluded for all eternity?

LD

[Gibs]

Yes it was very possible Adam and Eve to have never sinned, been disobedient. But it was such a possibility that God had planned for a Redeemer in the case it did come up. Sin began for us with Adam and Eve but Satan was the first one to rebel and find fault that God was not fair and just.

Iniquity rose up in him first as he was the highest created being of all and he got it in his head that he should be equal with Jesus Christ or as His name to us in the beginning was, Yahweh of Hosts. The Father's name was and is Yahweh King of Israel.

Jesus Christ was Satan's Creator and the clay wanted to be equal to the potter. What we must understand is Satan was a very artful deceiver as He deceived one third of the angels of which were far above us.

The reason we can know that Adam and Eve need not have fallen is because Yahweh of Hosts then came as one of us with our fallen nature and also possesing the Divine Nature overcome the devil with less than Adam and Eve had. Adam and Eve did not have a fallen nature till they fell!

None need to have fallen to disobedience and especially Satan. But that is where the head usually becomes too big for the hat is the ones at the top of all created beings. Satan was upheld in his beauty, power and great abilities and intellect given to him.

Know this our adversary is far above us and our only stronghold and defense is Christ in you and as Paul brought out, our hope of Glory. Without Him in us, His Divine Nature we are nothing but the easiest pushover for him, Satan.

Folks we must now and can be overcomers as Jesus Christ was is why He came and that is the way He made that we might do it and it is sure but it is narrow.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Windsor]

If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, none of us would be here today. A totally different population of human beings would be. Think about it.

[jamesonofthunder]

We teach, if I understand it correctly, that if only Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, the world would not be in the mess it is today. Was it possible for them to have remained sinless? If they hadn't sinned at the moment they did, was it inevitable that they would have sinned eventually? If they never sinned, how would the great controversy have been concluded for all eternity?

Dear LynnDel

It was not necessary for Sin to occur, the test could have been passed by all of the created worlds, of which ours was the only to fall. But God the Father can see the end from the beginning. He knew this controversy would come even before He created the worlds, even before He created Satan who would cause this destruction. Thats why Jesus is the "lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world". It was not God's will for sin to enter the universe, but, for the companionship and love that He could bring through the creation of men He decided to go through with creating us to express His love.

If a tree falls in the wilderness and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?

How could God express His love without men (created beings) to receive it?

[12tribes]

If sin was inevitable then that would be predestination, that would make God the author of sin but, sin is a choice we choose to serve God or not

[Gibs]

Adam and Eve were well equiped as we now are to not be taken in by sin, rebellion. If Adam and Eve would have prevailed in overcoming being taken in by Satan then Satan would have been removed from them. Our world failed and here we are. It did not have to be and was not predestined, God is not the Author of sin. Yes our first parents "choose" to disobey or we would be in a paradise today. Just as the other unfallen worlds that did not fall to Satan.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[miz3]

We teach, if I understand it correctly, that if only Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, the world would not be in the mess it is today. Was it possible for them to have remained sinless? If they hadn't sinned at the moment they did, was it inevitable that they would have sinned eventually? If they never sinned, how would the great controversy have been concluded for all eternity?

LD

Great question LynnDel.

I wonder if the SDA pat answers to such questions will actually hold up?

[miz3]

Quote:

None need to have fallen to disobedience and especially Satan. But that is where the head usually becomes too big for the hat is the ones at the top of all created beings. Satan was upheld in his beauty, power and great abilities and intellect given to him.

The FACT that satan's head got too big and satan thought he was/should be bigger than he actually was does not explain how such a perfect being could develop such a huge flaw.

We know the what, the problem comes with the how/why.

This has never ever been explained. The FACT that it has never ever been explained is not a criticism because God has never ever told us the why/how.

Only God knows the why/how.

[miz3]

If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, none of us would be here today. A totally different population of human beings would be. Think about it.

That is pure and total speculation on your part. If what you say is FACT. Then:

Please give Book, Chapter, and verse please that supports your statement.

[miz3]

Dear LynnDel

It was not necessary for Sin to occur, the test could have been passed by all of the created worlds, of which ours was the only to fall. But God the Father can see the end from the beginning. He knew this controversy would come even before He created the worlds, even before He created Satan who would cause this destruction. Thats why Jesus is the "lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world". It was not God's will for sin to enter the universe, but, for the companionship and love that He could bring through the creation of men He decided to go through with creating us to express His love.

If a tree falls in the wilderness and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?

How could God express His love without men (created beings) to receive it?

Please give Biblical evidence that all of what you say above is true.

Book, Chapter, and verse please.

[miz3]

We teach, if I understand it correctly, that if only Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, the world would not be in the mess it is today. Was it possible for them to have remained sinless? If they hadn't sinned at the moment they did, was it inevitable that they would have sinned eventually? If they never sinned, how would the great controversy have been concluded for all eternity?

LD

As I said before this is a fabulous question.

I doubt that anyone can give a truly full answer from the Bible and Bible only that would settle all questions stemming from your question.

What we do know:

1. God did not create sin?

"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"

2Corinthians 6:14.

"This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all."

1John 1:5.

2. I also give you this text to ponder with along with your very excellent question.

"For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]

16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"

Romans 9:9-24.

Note the underlined parts especially.

[Dr. Rich]

What IF God had killed them as He said He was going to do after they ate from the tree of knowing good and evil? What then?

Here is the thing: Satan was in charge of this earth and had all of those outside of the garden of Eden (first creation) believing that he was their god. That is why Adam and Eve were tested so that they could, or would have been able to show the evil world who the real Creator God was.

So yes, both Adam and Eve could have obeyed--just as we all now have a choice to obey and be saved--or not.

[Gibs]

Miz3,

All His created beings are made free to commit sin, disobedience or rebellion if they come to that with an upheld or puffed up heart. We do have a scripture that states He creates evil. But we know God is Good and is the optimum of love.

Satan the first to rebel was puffed up by his great intelect and beauty and power. A created being so blessed should never rise up in opposition to His Creator and it is stated of Him, "iniquity" was found in him.

What I wonder from this is that in making us totally free in that He created evil. In other words he created in all the choice to go against Him. I wonder - - -. Anyway here is the verse,

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

He didn't want a whole bunch of "androids" but free subjects within His Will loving Righteousness and Love as He is and no fault do they find in Him. He wants all to be free agents as He is but not to rise up to destroy in His knigdoms. We can understand why He can have only those who are of Him, as our earth in rebellion is the proving grounds. This cannot long endure and Nahum states,

Na 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Our world is a testimony to all what it leads to and all see this and are forever with and of Him Only for all eternity.

Are we not fitted or found to not be fitted?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[olger]

Sin was an intruder.

[miz3]

Miz3,

All His created beings are made free to commit sin, disobedience or rebellion if they come to that with an upheld or puffed up heart. We do have a scripture that states He creates evil. But we know God is Good and is the optimum of love.

Satan the first to rebel was puffed up by his great intelect and beauty and power. A created being so blessed should never rise up in opposition to His Creator and it is stated of Him, "iniquity" was found in him.

What I wonder from this is that in making us totally free in that He created evil. In other words he created in all the choice to go against Him. I wonder - - -. Anyway here is the verse,

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

He didn't want a whole bunch of "androids" but free subjects within His Will loving Righteousness and Love as He is and no fault do they find in Him. He wants all to be free agents as He is but not to rise up to destroy in His knigdoms. We can understand why He can have only those who are of Him, as our earth in rebellion is the proving grounds. This cannot long endure and Nahum states,

Na 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Our world is a testimony to all what it leads to and all see this and are forever with and of Him Only for all eternity.

Are we not fitted or found to not be fitted?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

The text you quote to state that God "created sin" (Isaiah 45:7) does not say what you assert.

Isaiah 45:7 says that God creates day and night. You are taking the Word of God out of context. You cannot just pluck a single text out of its context and claim truth.

Here is the text in its context:

"I am the LORD, and there is no other;

apart from me there is no God.

I will strengthen you,

though you have not acknowledged me,

6 so that from the rising of the sun

to the place of its setting

men may know there is none besides me.

I am the LORD, and there is no other.

7 I form the light and create darkness,

I bring prosperity and create disaster;

I, the LORD, do all these things."

Isaiah 45:5-7.

Notice the text is saying that God created the sun to rise and set thus creating the "light and darkness".

God is NOT SAYING IN THIS TEXT THAT HE CREATED "TRUTH AND SIN".

Thus, you missed the boat by a whole lot.

[Gibs]

Isa 45:5 ¶ I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

"evil" is,

ra` rah

from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):-- adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease(-ure), distress, evil((- favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Incl. feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.).

See Hebrew 7489

I will stick to the KJV

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Windsor]

Originally Posted By: Windsor

If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, none of us would be here today. A totally different population of human beings would be. Think about it.

That is pure and total speculation on your part. If what you say is FACT. Then:

Please give Book, Chapter, and verse please that supports your statement.

I don't really need the Bible. It's pure science. Every time a man knows his wife, at least 40 million sperm are realized. Only 1 successfully fertilizes with the egg. That's 40 million possible children each time. Even the tiniest change in one's routine could mean a different sperm gets there first. If you want to simply look at the different parent combinations, consider that Abel would not have been murdered. He would have married and had righteous children and certainly one of those descendents would have made it on the ark. Even in more recent times, think back to the ancestor of yours whose first spouse died and whose second spouse became your ancestor. There would be no second spouse in a world without sin because the first one wouldn't be born and then you wouldn't exist. Then there are all the affairs and rapes and so on in all of our ancestries, without which, we wouldn't exist. And then of course all the different wars, killing off people who would otherwise have children.

[miz3]

Isa 45:5 ¶ I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

"evil" is,

ra` rah

from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):-- adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease(-ure), distress, evil((- favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Incl. feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.).

See Hebrew 7489

I will stick to the KJV

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Your linguistic confirms my position and the other Biblical translations. Context, context, context.

You are trying to push your own private meaning on what God is actually saying.

[dialoguewithus]

A snippet from The Really Bad Thing About Free Will (2006), p. 64, by Martin Zender:

“The “fall” of humanity in the garden did not take God by surprise. How could anything take God by surprise? God did not resort – following the events of Eden – to Plan B. I am happy to tell you that God is still on Plan A, and the so-called fall was part of that plan. God has a plan (Ephesians 3:11). Imagine that.”

Romans 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation

Christ will conquer evil with good. He will draw all to Himself and subject all to Himself. Romans 12:21; John 12:32; Phil. 3:21. This is so because God graces Him with the name (“Yahweh saves”) above every name, so that every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father. This is in accord with the Father’s will, for a Ransom being paid, the Power can do nothing less than justify those ransomed by the precious blood of His Son. Phil. 2:9-11; 1 Tim. 2:1-6. The undeniable judgments reserved for some cannot negate that God is the Savior of all mankind, while especially of believers.

The answer is YES. http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/507280/1.html

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Windsor

If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, none of us would be here today. A totally different population of human beings would be. Think about it.

That is pure and total speculation on your part. If what you say is FACT. Then:

Please give Book, Chapter, and verse please that supports your statement.

[dialoguewithus]

Revelation 13;8 “And all who are dwelling on the earth will be worshiping it, everyone whose name is not written in the scroll of life of the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world." That was before Adam sinned. 1 Peter 1:20. Nothing foreknown by God can be uncertain; it must occur. Acts 1:16; Lk. 21:9; 22:37; Matt. 26:54; Rev. 1:1; 22:6. (Eph. 1:4; Jn. 17:24; Heb. 11:11)

Isaiah 45:7, Concordant Literal Version: “Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things.”

“Evil” is Strong’s 7451 ra’ , as in Gen. 2:9.

http://interlinearbible.org/isaiah/45-7.htm

http://concordances.org/hebrew/7451.htm

http://studybible.info/strongs/H7451

[Windsor]

Originally Posted By: miz3

That is pure and total speculation on your part. If what you say is FACT. Then:

Please give Book, Chapter, and verse please that supports your statement.

Originally Posted By: Windsor

I don't really need the Bible. It's pure science. Every time a man knows his wife, at least 40 million sperm are realized. Only 1 successfully fertilizes with the egg. That's 40 million possible children each time. Even the tiniest change in one's routine could mean a different sperm gets there first. If you want to simply look at the different parent combinations, consider that Abel would not have been murdered. He would have married and had righteous children and certainly one of those descendents would have made it on the ark. Even in more recent times, think back to the ancestor of yours whose first spouse died and whose second spouse became your ancestor. There would be no second spouse in a world without sin because the first one wouldn't be born and then you wouldn't exist. Then there are all the affairs and rapes and so on in all of our ancestries, without which, we wouldn't exist. And then of course all the different wars, killing off people who would otherwise have children. [/quote']

Everything works EXACTLY AS GOD HAS PLANNED IT. God makes no mistakes. God chose the sperm He wanted out of those 40 or more million sperm to actually fertilize the egg.

Science is exactly whatever God makes it.

You put your trust/faith not in God but in science/statistics/ and human efforts.

I will put my FAITH in GOD and TRUST whatever transpires.

It is a wonder to think that out of all the possibilities open to God that He picked the one that resulted in my existence. God also chose out of all the infinite possibilities the very circumstances into which I was born.

Why does God do this?

Romans chapter nine says that God does these things to demonstrate is Greatness in Love, Mercy, Salvation, Redemption, etc., etc., etc.

Think about it Windsor you are very special in the eyes of God because God had many, even infinite choices, but God chose you out of all the unending possibilities.

This is why I love God and why I trust Him only.

I don't worry or fret over things like "chance", "randomness", "chaos" because the Bible says that God is a God of "order" and not disorder.

At the Creation God made made everything just the way He wanted. He made Adam and Eve just the way He wanted out of all the possible options available to God.

Adam and Eve were not "randomly" brought into existence.

To support your erroneous theory, is the same as for you to believe in creation/evolution theories which hold that God got it started and then let it run. Such theories are not Biblical.

Think about it.

I believe God has allowed sin to run its course in many instances and in some others He has held it in check. God allows rape, murder, disease, death, etc. Other times people people are healed or angels rescue us from the enemy. He knew you and I would be born and He loves us no matter who our parents are but He also gave my parents the choice of who to marry and they chose each other. If they hadn't, I wouldn't be here.

[miz3]

I believe God has allowed sin to run its course in many instances and in some others He has held it in check. God allows rape, murder, disease, death, etc. Other times people people are healed or angels rescue us from the enemy. He knew you and I would be born and He loves us no matter who our parents are but He also gave my parents the choice of who to marry and they chose each other. If they hadn't, I wouldn't be here.

1. Your belief would not then be supported by what the Bible and the Bible only states.

2. You believe that God "starts then lets things run its natural logical course". Also not a Bible and Bible only Principle.

3. You propose that you are not really God's choice but you are the choice of "chance".

Then according to your logic "chance" is really in charge and is the god of all things. The God of the Bible and the Bible only is mostly just a by stander who waits to see how it all shakes out.

According to your theory "chance" is stronger than God and has more to do with the way things than anything else.

Is this Biblical? If so please supply Book, Chapter, and verse please to demonstrate you position from Scripture.

[Windsor]

The only way you can defend your theory is to say that God is the author of rape, murder, incest, adultery and that in fact we have no ability to choose. We are simply robots that God programmed in which case we're not responsible if we sin or not and hence God can not send us to hell.

[olger]

Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. To explain it is to defend it.