A Question For The Historicists

[Gibs]

First the verses in question,

Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

First we notice above it is the dragon, Satan, gives power to this first beast.

Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months

Verse then above reveals only for 42 months to continue. And the verse below reveals to make war with the Saints.

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Now tell me something, if this is the period that ended 1798 as I believe most believe it did, then how do you explain that the beast is still making war with the Saints. Or do you now believe he quit making war with us. Martyrdom stopped then but the war picks up and is still going on and Martyrdom will be billions instead of millions before long. Who is making this warfare we are in? Not the wars of men with Iran and Iraq and such but the war with righteousness and truth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

I've asked this question in church and none have an answer. Is there an answer?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

The point I am making is that this 42 month period has not happened, this is a literal time period that can only begin "after" the deadly wound is healed not before, as the text upholds that.

Re 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

This is a different beast than of 12, the crowns are on the horns here. So that makes it clear then it is this rising up out of the peoples beast that is seen as leopard like instead of a great red dragon as in 12 and so this one then is given the following "after" the deadly wound is healed.

Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Twilight II]

First the verses in question,

Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

First we notice above it is the dragon, Satan, gives power to this first beast.

Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months

Verse then above reveals only for 42 months to continue. And the verse below reveals to make war with the Saints.

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Now tell me something, if this is the period that ended 1798 as I believe most believe it did, then how do you explain that the beast is still making war with the Saints. Or do you now believe he quit making war with us. Martyrdom stopped then but the war picks up and is still going on and Martyrdom will be billions instead of millions before long. Who is making this warfare we are in? Not the wars of men with Iran and Iraq and such but the war with righteousness and truth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

If the total of all prophecy regarding the Papacy had to fit into the 1260 days, then you would have a point.

But I think that is what is wrong with your question.

It has this assumption at its heart.

Mark :-)

[Gibs]

The point i am making is that 42 mos. of Rev 13 are literal time after the deadly wound is healed. No prophecy can be in years after the 2300 day/year one. This is not another prophecy in years from 538 to 1798 nor is the one in Rev 11:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

What verse gives you the idea that 42 months starts after the deadly wound is healed? I don't see a connection to the two events.

[BobRyan]

First the verses in question,

Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

First we notice above it is the dragon, Satan, gives power to this first beast.

Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months

Verse then above reveals only for 42 months to continue. And the verse below reveals to make war with the Saints.

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Now tell me something, if this is the period that ended 1798 as I believe most believe it did, then how do you explain that the beast is still making war with the Saints. Or do you now believe he quit making war with us. Martyrdom stopped then

Martyrdom does not end until the judgment is passed in favor of the saints (Dan 7:22). The entire judgment process must end - to stop the killing of the saints.

That has not happened yet.

But the 1260 years of the dark ages has ended.

In fact since the protestant reformation released the Bible from chains forged around it - there has been a light of day in which the fallen Babylon has allowed the release of the captives since the reformation.

This light of day can never be equivocated to the dark night of the dark ages - as if "there has been no change".

in Christ,

Bob

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

It is made clear in verses 3,4 and 5,

Re 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

notice, wonders after the beast and not the wounded head, and then who can make war with the beast, below,

Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Then the next verse goes on to tell us "power is given unto him to continue forty and two months".

Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Now this beast rises up out of the sea and now has the crowns on the horns and the changing of the crowns happens when a change of power from the religious systems to the horns which the time is of the deadly wound. So it becomes clear these 42 mos. start after the deadly wound is healed and are not the yrs to 1798. These are literal time.

This is new to historicists and most can't see it but many now are beginning to. The scroll has now been unrolled for many years now but not many are prophecy studious as historicists were done long ago trying.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

This isn't new to historist Gibs, this is a plain and simple Aventist futurist interpretation thats been around for years. Note this is ADVENTIST FUTURIST, not to be confused with Futurists of other denominations. Adventist Futurist put an extra special "spin" on their version.

There is no truth in this. There are many professed Adventists groups with a variation on the theme and therein lays the problem. There are MANY GROUPS, there is no consensus, no agreement, it's every group for himself. Everyone with a slightly different version. Some in the church, some out, some off shoots. Dr. Rich is one such group, he too has similiar theology ideas about future prophecy. I could name a bunch of these groups, what makes YOUR group any more special than a dozen others with the same basic theme?

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

Now this beast rises up out of the sea...

This surging, tumultuous sea, the Birthplace of Beasts, is like the surging, tumultuous sea of people covering the surface of the Earth following the resurrection. Soon afterwards, the Four World Powers rise in sequence to rule the entire world, as prophesied.

[Gibs]

I made a new post of the prophecy of Rev chap. 13 for anymore of the realistic view I hold and see as the truth of this. The scroll is now fully unrolled and wasn't back yonder when prophecy was set forth by the pioneers of Adventism. Never is prophecy all complete until the consumation is completed. Never!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Refuting the idea that the Deadly Wound precedes the 42 months:

Revelation 13 is not written in perfect chronological order.

13:5 is going BACK again to the time before the wound.

After verse 5, you have:

13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

If the 1260 days are future, are we to conclude that another beast comes up after the 1260 days in verse 5?

Also you have verse 10 which states:

13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

It mentions the "sword" here, and "captivity". This verse is transpiring after verse 5 which mentions the 42 months. Then you have verse 12:

13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

This places the wound as happening before the Lamb Like Beast, but after the 42 months.

Then you have verse 14:

13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the WOUND BY A SWORD, and did live.

The wound was by what? by the sword. Where is the sword mentioned before? In verse 10 where the beast is killed with the sword (the state), and goes into captivity. Verse 10 was an event that comes after the 42 months in verse 5.

Thus we see that these passages are not strictly listed in chronological order. Yet the correct chronology can be deduced by comparing the written words with historical events.

The deadly wound must transpire at the end of the 42 months. Not before.

[Gibs]

No, a new order was began by Satan after the deadly wound. the crowns were on the heads in that earlier system. The new system the crowns are on the horns. The heads were the religious players, the papacy being brought to view proves it, the rest have to be the same. The new system starts after 1798 and nothing in Rev. 13: is before 1798. You need to show it from scripture. The old system can rightly be termed Satan's Old World Order and the new one the New World Order that takes soon now to the consumation which we now are about to the end of the prophecy of Rev 13:

The 42 mos. are in literal time and will be the length of the soon to start time of severe trouble. I think you will believe it then.

The true story reveals there is but a few yes left. Rough ones too all are soon to see, we have seen nothing like what is to come upon the earth and mankind who have walked away from God.

Men are not hearing God for the most part, most are hearing another voice.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

No, a new order was began by Satan after the deadly wound. the crowns were on the heads in that earlier system. The new system the crowns are on the horns. The heads were the religious players, the papacy being brought to view proves it, the rest have to be the same. The new system starts after 1798 and nothing in Rev. 13: is before 1798. You need to show it from scripture. The old system can rightly be termed Satan's Old World Order and the new one the New World Order that takes soon now to the consumation which we now are about to the end of the prophecy of Rev 13:

The 42 mos. are in literal time and will be the length of the soon to start time of severe trouble. I think you will believe it then.

The true story reveals there is but a few yes left. Rough ones too all are soon to see, we have seen nothing like what is to come upon the earth and mankind who have walked away from God.

Men are not hearing God for the most part, most are hearing another voice.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I agree that there are a few years left. but I do not agree a out the deadly wound. That happened when a war destroyed the Jewish way to worship. Many popes were held captive without destroying the way to worship for catholics. The mistaken idea that the catholic church was the deadly wounded head came from protestants, not from EGW.

[Gibs]

Dr. Rich,

You do have a different view and that Is each of us right and I am and investigating continually one even past the age of 80.

I do appreciate your view.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.