And Man made God in his Own Image

[Bravus]

A great quote from Anne Lammott, one writer whose musings on spirituality I always enjoy: "You can tell you have created God in your own image when it turns out that he or she hates all the same people you do."

[Nicodema]

That IS a good quote. But unfortunately it stops short of embracing the Beast and its ilk. I don't think God "hates" them but I know He is not on their side because He took great pains in the book of Revelation to exhort us not to be on their side either, and to describe the final end thereof as being in the lake of fire.

I despise the lies they tell and foist on the gullible. It makes me despise them too, frankly. But then I meet one of them who is in other respects an upstanding Christian person and it rips my heart out. On the one hand I admire the Christian character I see; on the other hand I loathe and despise the lies I see them swallowing and worse, perpetuating to others. What to do ... what to do ... ?

[Dr. Shane]

Are you picking on the radical Islamics again, Brother Bravus? or are you refering to Jehova Witnesses? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

[Dr. Shane]

Maybe we could stop hate if we just killed everyone who we think hates other people. Hmmmm, how do you think the liberals would handle that? Is killing ok if they are killing guys like Rush Limbaugh that they think are spreading hate?

Why can't we just live together in peace? Sheesh, I am glad I am not a hate inspector trying to figure out who is hating who.

[Bravus]

Nope, not picking on anyone at all. What I actually get out of the quote is that God will keep on surprising us, if we open ourselves to Him.

[Bravus]

Well, that and the fact that God loves us all and hates none of us.

[Nicodema]

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Why can't we just live together in peace? Sheesh, I am glad I am not a hate inspector trying to figure out who is hating who.

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Oh please. Like one is really needed when it is as obvious as the nose on a person's face. Hate, like love, is very obvious when it is actively manifest in word or deed. Don't even attempt to tell me otherwise.

[Nicodema]

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Well, that and the fact that God loves us all and hates none of us.

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Yes but there are those that hate everything Real God is, while claiming to be the most stalwart loyalists to a God they have made in their image which they wish to foist on everyone else as being who/what is Really God. I personally cannot help but hate them for that. Maybe that's my flaw or shortcoming, but it is how I feel. It doesn't mean I want to kill them or anything -- I just want to see their lying lips shut up and their lying ways ended. The Bible says to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. That was a lot easier for me to do with regard to Satan than with regard to those who claim to be God's people and go around making Him out to be so heinous that no one would ever want to know Him. Of course I am not perfect myself so who knows, I probably do that too in my own way. Just not the way they do it, which I find abhorrent. Sorry, that's just who I am and how I feel. It isn't going to change unless God changes it in me.

[Tom Wetmore]

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Well, that and the fact that God loves us all and hates none of us.

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That is essentially the point I understood from Anne Lammott's quote. If we are created in His image we will have and show love for everyone. On the other hand, we have a warped sense of God if we think he hates those we hate and only loves those we love.

This reminds me of the words of Dorothy Day that have haunted me since the first time I read them. I can find no way around the thought and find that they ring true to Jesus' commands to love one another even as he loves us and "unto the least of these..." Dorothy Day wrote, "I love God only as much as the person I love the least."

Tom

[Amelia]

Tom, that is a very profound statement. Makes me really wonder about the love I have for God and the changes I still need to go through.

[Bravus]

Shane wrote:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Sheesh, I am glad I am not a hate inspector trying to figure out who is hating who.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

(gentle ribbing mode ON) Uhuh, but you have enough inspection skills to unfailingly spot a Bush-hater, right? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Tom Wetmore]

Amelia, I marvel each time I think about that simple and direct statement at how deeply it cuts to the heart of how short of the mark we fall of being perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect (for it was precisely God's love that Jesus was speaking of when he said that...). I have far too many people in mind crowding into that least loved corner of my heart. Wow! Even if I ignore the many who don't even make it to my loved roster and consider the ones I do love and just think of the least loved of those near and dear to me, I think how dismally short I fall... It reinforces the impossibility of overcoming my actions, much less my very nature.

But in the end it convicts me of the beautiful truth that it is only in Jesus that I have any hope at all! Notice in Revelation how Jesus describes the reaction of the saints, amazed and shocked at being saved, "No its You, only You, the Lamb that is worthy!"

Tom

[Dr. Shane]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

you have enough inspection skills to unfailingly spot a Bush-hater, right?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Especially when they crash jets into buildings <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Nicodema]

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you have enough inspection skills to unfailingly spot a Bush-hater, right?

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Especially when they crash jets into buildings

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So then, you admit that hate is easy to spot and needs no special close inspection skills, eh?

[Anthony!]

[:"red"] Shane: [/] This thread #169787 - Wed Apr 27 2005 08:32 PM

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Why can't we just live together in peace? Sheesh, I am glad I am not a hate inspector trying to figure out who is hating who.

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YET...

[:"red"] Shane: [/] #157414 - Wed Feb 23 2005 05:40 PM

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I was not promoting hatred as you falsely accuse me of. I was showing that there is real Bush hatred out there. Many on this forum have claimed that is just a figment of my imangination... So now when I refer to the Bush-hating crowd everyone will know who I am refering to (the wacko left). It is great if you are not part of that crowd but beware of them.

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AND...

[:"red"] Shane: [/] #164960 - Thu Mar 31 2005 05:13 PM

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He

(President Bush)

isn't touring the country so a bunch of protestors and Bush-haters can get free press. He is trying to push an agenda that he believes is best for the country.

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PLUS...

[:"red"] Shane: [/] #154340 - Tue Feb 01 2005 03:38 PM

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What is sad is that Bush-haters would love nothing better than to see civil war in Iraq and terrorists to take control. Sad that they cherish hatred so much that they hope for thousands to die and be oppressed again.

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ALSO...

[:"red"] Shane: [/] #154514 - Wed Feb 02 2005 04:24 PM

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Many Bush-haters pretend to be concerned about how Bush has hurt the American image abroad.

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MORE...

[:"red"] Shane: [/] #151233 - Tue Jan 11 2005 08:07 PM

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This appears to be about the politics of personal destruction. The Bush-haters are just chomping at the bit for any story they can use to push their agenda of hatred. I am surprised my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ are so anxious to act as talebearers.

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IN ADDITION...

[:"red"] Shane: [/] #149643 - Sun Jan 02 2005 07:15 AM

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How quickly the anti-American and Bush-haters forget about the billions we have spent on such things as AIDS in Africa and Asia. Of course when hatred dwells in the heart it is never content.

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AND...

[:"red"] Shane: [/] #160525 - Thu Mar 10 2005 05:21 PM

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There are a group of people out there (I won't mention names) that don't believe there are Bush-haters. They think the term "Bush hate" is just right wing language used to anger Left wingers. Now here we obviously have an fine example of a Bush hater. So we know it isn't just Whoopie Goldberg and Chevy Chase. I tend to think a lot of journalists are Bush haters.

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WHEW! SHOULD I GO ON? HOW ABOUT PARANOIA (A MENTAL ILLNESS)...

[:"red"] Shane: [/] #161076 - Sun Mar 13 2005 05:24 PM

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Well I would not call someone mentally ill a wacko.

Nor would I call someone a wacko because they hold a specific idealogy.

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(bold italics supplied)

[:"blue"] Definitions: [/]

[:"blue"] paranoia

paranoia (pàr´e-noi´e) noun

1. A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution or grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason.

2. Extreme, irrational distrust of others.

[Greek, madness, from paranoos, demented : para-, beyond. See para-1 + nous, noos, mind.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved. [/]

[:"blue"] ideology

ideology (ì´dê-òl´e-jê, îd´ê-) noun

plural ideologies

1. The body of ideas reflecting the social needs and aspirations of an individual, a group, a class, or a culture.

2. A set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system.

[French idéologie : idéo-, ideo- + -logie, -logy.]

- i´deol´ogist noun

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved. [/]

YET...

[:"red"] Shane: [/]#157445 - Wed Feb 23 2005 07:12 PM

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Sister Rosie, I work with a draftsman that I consider to be with the

wacko

left and he is far from being a Democrat. He is more of a

socialist

. Those I know of the

wacko

Left are what I call "fringe" Democrats. They are not really Democrats but given only two choices they will choose Democrats over Republicans.

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(bold italics supplied)

PLUS...

[:"red"] Shane: [/]#152605 - Fri Jan 21 2005 06:45 PM

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I do not want to be the sterotypical, paranoid Seventh-day Adventist that points at each gust of wind as a sign the Sunday law is nearer.

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ALSO...

[:"red"] Shane: [/]#152264 - Tue Jan 18 2005 08:15 PM

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34 paranoid conspiracy theories you might say. Sounds a lot like Micheal Moore and gang to me.

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AGAIN...

[:"red"] Shane: [/]#160981 - Sun Mar 13 2005 06:11 AM

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A wacko in the political world is one that has made up his or her mind and is unwilling to listen to debate and consider the aurguments made. It is a person with whom one cannot reason. Thus a wacko. We find these on both the extreame Left and Right. Micheal Moore is a classic example on the Left and Timothy McVeigh is a classic example on the Right.

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PLUS...

[:"red"] Shane: [/]#152148 - Mon Jan 17 2005 08:10 PM

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There are plenty of paranoid people on both the Left and Right that believe all kinds of goofy conspiracy theories. Brother Bevin has shown us that he buys into some of the wacky left ones.

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MORE...

[:"red"] Shane: [/]#148347 - Thu Dec 23 2004 07:34 AM

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Brother Neil, you really make yourself appear to be paranoid.

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AND STILL...

[:"red"] Shane: [/]#148426 - Thu Dec 23 2004 06:44 PM

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I know paranoid when I see it.

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BUT INCREDULOUSLY, SHANE ESPOUSES THIS...

[:"red"] Shane: [/]#161707 - Wed Mar 16 2005 08:58 PM

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Do not speak against one another, brethern. He who speaks against a brother, or judges his brother, speaks against the law, and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law, but a judge of it. ~ James 4:11

The accuser of our brethern has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony - Rev. 12:10, 11

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(bold supplied)

FRIENDS, DECIDE FOR YOURSELVES...

[NormF]

Pretty it ain't, Tony ... but it does seem to be fairly well nailed down. The record is there.

[Bravus]

Oi, I was just gently ribbing!

[Nicodema]

I don't buy into spin and automatic validation techniques -- someone automatically labeling ideas as coming from a "tainted well" in hopes that people will never seriously examine them. This is what is going on when someone labels ideas they don't agree with as "wacko" or whatever and automatically relegates them to the scrap heap without intelligent analysis or consideration just because it doesn't serve their pet agenda. It's a gambit of social pressure that others will feel self-conscious about embracing, or even being SEEN AS IF embracing those ideas (and giving any serious thought to them, or doing anything OTHER THAN dismissiveness out of hand, is tacitly implied as being seen as if embracing them). I just don't buy that brand of fiddlefaddle. And it has a name in debate parlance: it is known as the "tainted well" gambit.

If there is any such thing as a "tainted well" at all, it is that course of crying "tainted well" itself, not whatever it points at and CALLS a tainted well. When I see people buying into it and perpetuating it, it makes me angry, but since you can't control what others do, all I can do is -- laugh, cry, shake my head, marvel at what they must take me for. Last I checked I was not consummately stupid. I literally cannot believe the lengths people will go to in order to justify evil because they desperately need to believe in the unshakable, unassailable goodness of their leader(s). My mind literally cannot parse it, it is so outrageous and beyond the pale. They really think they are pulling the wool over others' eyes but they are only fooling themselves. Unfortunately, they are numerically in the majority right now so they have the ego-stroking illusion that they are succeeding in their sales pitch and cheerleading propaganda. Wrong. Intelligent and informed citizens know how to think for ourselves and are not afraid to do so. I have no respect for the position of anyone who needs to stoop to tainted well, straw man, and/or ad hominem to push their views. They might as well put a permanent sock in it because they will get nowhere with me. And their power to incite me to argue back is rapidly on the wane because I no longer care about getting anywhere with them -- as the old adage goes, "you cannot teach a pig to sing...."

Speaking of pigs, this would be a good time to re-watch or re-read Animal Farm. If it hasn't been added to your local church-and-state sponsored "ban and burn" list already, that is.

[Jeannieb43]

Speaking of Animal Farm, Nico, I bought a copy a couple months ago, at the same time I picked up Orwell's 1984 to read for our book club.

I've always thought George Orwell had a pretty good sense of prophecy, somehow. [Of course, he was basing his fiction on a combination of Stalin's and Lenin's tactics and Communism, with which he was very familiar.]

"Big Brother is watching you" is strikingly similar to parts of the Patriot Act, IMHO.

Our discussion of 1984 was extremely lively and stimulating.

Now I really must open Animal Farm and see what it has to say about this day and age.

[Nicodema]

Jeannie I find Animal Farm to be a scathing rebuke of capitalism and wealth-based "class structure" in general. Very eye opening. If you get a chance to see it on DVD, do so. Of course the book is always meatier than the movie so by all means read it as well!

[DaveM1936]

Can one disagree with another person's ideas without hating them?

I was showing a recent front page of the St. Louis Post Dispatch is a fellow church member last Sabbath. On the front page with a photograph of two men from the University of Illinois who had invented a transitor the size of a speck of dust which can transmit 600 billion items of information a second. I did it to show how Dan 12 was being fulfilled.

But his face got red, he began shaking his finger in my face, expounding on this "communist rag". He went on and on. He is an extreme convervative like Shane. But for a moment he had lost his sanity. He would not permit me to say anything in return. Unless a person is willing to listen to someone's ideas, even though he disagrees with them, he is exhiting to all that his position is not really defensible. He did not care that I was a Democrat and that his reaction was offensive to me. This is not a Christian way of treating people. Christ would not have done this.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Nicodema]

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Can one disagree with another person's ideas without hating them?

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For me it depends on how hateful the person is with whom one disagrees. I find that when I'm experiencing emotions that are hate-like in nature, it usually has little (if anything) to do with the ideas someone holds and more to do with the attitude of the holder and the manner in which they present them.

[Nicodema]

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This is not a Christian way of treating people. Christ would not have done this.

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Nail, head, bang!

I confess I have a special hatred reserved for those who gloss over everything they do with a big showy profession of Christian religion under which they bury inexcusable positions, whitewashings and justifications for all sorts of heinous evil because it is business or politics or whatever.

But in my own defense ... "Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies." -- Psalm 139:21-22. Apparently there is a place for Biblically Correct hatred in this context, I would add provided we keep in mind Jesus' teaching on how to TREAT our enemies: "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:44-45).

We can choose to LOVE (in deliberate actions) those we HATE (in feelings) and therefore fulfill BOTH these passages. Neat, huh?