How to reach Eastern Orthodox Christians?

[Lysimachus]

I have been running into more and more Eastern Orthodox Christians lately, and I must confess, knowing how to reach them as an Adventist in a systematic way can be difficult.

You mention Protestants, and they have no problem seeing the problems with Protestants.

You mention the Catholic Church, and they consider that system to be a great "heresy", and will nod their heads.

But they believe that they can be traced back to the "orthodox" Christian Church established by Jesus and the Apostles.

Have any Adventists here had experience in knowing how to reach Eastern Orthodox Christians? What methods are used, and how do we help them see that they are nearly the same as the Catholics theologically speaking?

Are there any defined methods in Adventism for reaching Eastern Orthodox? The Great Controversy doesn't even mention this system even once, and might not that prove offensive to them that their Church is not even recognized in her book?

Any thoughts?

I ask that Adventists only respond to this, thanks Miz3. :)

[Patrick Lawrence]

Lysimachus interesting question. But think about it this way maybe. They believe exactly the same thing as the Catholic church. That is they came directly from the apostles. So this belief is not unique. But besids studing the Bible related to exact Adventist doctrines I would also study the history of their church. You need to read about the The East–West Schism of 1054 when they split from the Catholic church. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism Wikipedia will give you a brief overview of the disagreements over time that lead to split.

Any way after you know the history then you can speak intelligently to them about the history of their denomination. And about exactly where the errors came in etc etc.

[12tribes]

I have had discussions with them and everything you have said about them is true. I would like to know more myself. All I can think of is that we should agree where we can present the Bible and pray.

In dialogue with people of other faiths I have found it good to look for points that you can agree on, if we argue in disagreements it will only put them offside. Here a little there a little.

I would be interested to here what others have to say.

[Patrick Lawrence]

Agreed 12tribes you should not start out attacking things. They do not like it any more than we do The key is to build a friendship and trust. Then you can talk about things as friends. You can present your beliefs as God leads. Then the most important part. You let the holyspirit do the rest. Because we do not convert people we just present the truth as God leads us. Then the holyspirit convicts them of it.

[Gustave]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5932925362367103900#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlJvDz3ZtTw

Issue w/ Catholicism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7RSd5kLd2w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZIg0myKo6Q

[Gustave]

I have been running into more and more Eastern Orthodox Christians lately, and I must confess, knowing how to reach them as an Adventist in a systematic way can be difficult.

You mention Protestants, and they have no problem seeing the problems with Protestants.

[Gail]

Would it be helpful to acquire a Bible which is translated from the Aramaic? (the Peshitta)

As far as I know that is what they have always used.

Let me know what you find... I am reuniting with my Ukrainian relatives and they are Greek Orthodox. I'm not sure if the Greek Orthodox is considered an Eastern Christian church or western, but I imagine that they may be similar.

[Gustave]

Would it be helpful to acquire a Bible which is translated from the Aramaic? (the Peshitta)

As far as I know that is what they have always used.

Let me know what you find... I am reuniting with my Ukrainian relatives and they are Greek Orthodox. I'm not sure if the Greek Orthodox is considered an Eastern Christian church or western, but I imagine that they may be similar.

Jesus spoke Aramaic...

...The Orthodox Church is big on Greek.

...They mostly use the KJV or NKJV Orthodox Edition.

Eastern Orthodox is "all" the Orthodox Churches...

...Be they Greek, Russian, Romanian, etc.

...Their Doctrines are identical.

[Lysimachus]

Gustave,

* * *

This thread is about how to appropriately dialogue with an Eastern Orthodox Christian as an Adventist.

They may consider Catholicism the very "womb of heresies", but the fact is, a good 80% of their theology is the same as Roman Catholic.

For the record, I consider both Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox as "two wings of the same bird".

My aim here is to know how to deal with an Eastern Orthodox, and how Eastern Orthodox fit into prophecy in relation to the 3 Angel's Messages.

How should an Adventist, who is joined with the remnant truth, discuss theological doctrine?

[SivartM]

Er, what did Gustave say? He's giving information about the Orthodox church. There's nothing wrong with that. It's rather relevant to a discussion about the church, isn't it?

Anyway, it's both funny and sad to me that I was probably in my late teens before I really became aware of the Eastern Orthodox churches. They are very similar to Catholicism compared to Protestantism, so it's always seemed very odd that Adventists are so obsessed with the Roman Catholic church, but I have never seen much in Adventist literature about it. I was literally unaware of Orthodoxy's existence.

Since I learned about it, I've come to think that there are definitely some things that Orthodoxy does better than Protestantism, especially their soteriology. I honestly think that they're probably one of the best Christian denominations. They reject the arrogance inherent in the pope's claim to power, while still holding on to a beautiful and ancient lifestyle. That's something special, and I don't think the way to go about teaching present truth is to tell everyone that their church is the devil and they have to leave. I don't think that you need to "deal with" the Orthodox. That seems rather patronizing; they are Christians, after all. Just treat them like everyone else, and maybe visit their church if you want to get to know them better.

[Lysimachus]

Er, what did Gustave say? He's giving information about the Orthodox church. There's nothing wrong with that. It's rather relevant to a discussion about the church, isn't it?

Anyway, it's both funny and sad to me that I was probably in my late teens before I really became aware of the Eastern Orthodox churches. They are very similar to Catholicism compared to Protestantism, so it's always seemed very odd that Adventists are so obsessed with the Roman Catholic church, but I have never seen much in Adventist literature about it. I was literally unaware of Orthodoxy's existence.

Since I learned about it, I've come to think that there are definitely some things that Orthodoxy does better than Protestantism, especially their soteriology. I honestly think that they're probably one of the best Christian denominations. They reject the arrogance inherent in the pope's claim to power, while still holding on to a beautiful and ancient lifestyle. That's something special, and I don't think the way to go about teaching present truth is to tell everyone that their church is the devil and they have to leave. I don't think that you need to "deal with" the Orthodox. That seems rather patronizing; they are Christians, after all. Just treat them like everyone else, and maybe visit their church if you want to get to know them better.

The question is: Are their doctrines Biblical?

What are there doctrines exactly?

It matters not how nice of a denomination it is. Error is error, and error must be dealt with.

If I were having a Bible study, and an Eastern Orthodox Christian who knows His Bible tries to convince me that they are truly the "orthodox" Christians, I'm going to have to know some history of their Church to dialogue with him properly.

Remember, they also believe they are the "true" Church. So the question is, on what Biblical basis could we establish that they are not the "true" Church?

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

If I were having a Bible study, and an Eastern Orthodox Christian who knows His Bible tries to convince me that they are truly the "orthodox" Christians, I'm going to have to know some history of their Church to dialogue with him properly.

Remember, they also believe they are the "true" Church. So the question is, on what Biblical basis could we establish that they are not the "true" Church?

I would think the real question would be why do you feel the need to establish that you are right and they are wrong?

What good comes out of that other than a smug, self satisfied ego boost?

Why not just study togetherand find truth together?

[Gibs]

I would say we are not to join in with being the acusser but we are to go about pointing out different errors and pointing to the truth of the question we raise. No one of course likes to have their errors pointed out to them but if we truly love them then we must do it as cool as we can but not pull back the point of truth.

I've taken a lot of "heat" from pointing out error of SDA's and no they do not like it but error is error and we all do err in some respect and should be glad some one has the stamina to point it out to us.

All must know that error will be defended very strongly. Sometimes some strong truth laid out squarely must be used. Yet it will be denied. Pride is a killer of finding out the truth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Okay, so then Eastern Orthodox Christians hold the true, uncomprimised, unadulterated religion of the Bible.

Right?

Folks, try to understand what I'm saying. Im not saying let's engage in a debate "purposely".

I want to know exactly "what exactly makes the Eastern Orthodox Church not God's 'true' Church?"

Remember, like Catholics, they think they are the true Church.

We can show why the Catholic Church is not the true Church, but what arguments would we use for Eastern Orthodox?

Do you guys see what I'm trying to say here?

[SivartM]

If they follow Christ, they are the true church. So are Catholics who follow Christ and Adventists who follow Christ. No human organization is the true church.

[John317]

Catholics may be true Christians, but the Roman Catholic Church is not the "true church" from the biblical viewpoint. The Roman Catholic Church is a part of Babylon, which consists of the fallen churches. She's pictured in the book of Revelation as a prostitute riding on the beast. The Bible clearly identifies the "true church." There's no need for anyone to be confused about it. God doesn't want anyone to be confused so He's provided everyone with all the information we need to know to be able to identify His church if we want to.

[SivartM]

The true church is everyone who follows Jesus. The true church is not an organization formally established in 1863. It's existed for as long as Jesus has been in the world.

[Lysimachus]

If they follow Christ, they are the true church. So are Catholics who follow Christ and Adventists who follow Christ. No human organization is the true church.

If they follow Christ, ignorantly they will be saved in God's true Church, but not the Church they thought they were apart of.

That does not make the organized Church they were apart of God's true Church.

Disorganized or not, God's true Church has the true doctrines. Are you denying that the Lord lead the Adventist movement? And the pioneers?

Forget organizations for a moment here. Think of the truth in its unadulterated form. Were the Advent body of believers lead by God or not? Were the pillars of their faith given by God or not?

God will not deprive His people of truth, and true doctrine. Whether they be scattered abroad, or not, God leads them into true doctrine from the scriptures.

I'm in an Adventist forum, and I expect to get answers from an Adventist who stands solid on our foundations.

It is not my intent to engage in a quarrel with you SimartM. But I must confess I'm not finding your comments very helpful or contributive.

I asked a question, and if you cannot answer it, do not be fearful to tell me you do not know the answer. If you do not know, then do not know. If you refuse to provide me the answer in the manner I am asking, then the best thing for you to do is to not answer at all. Silence is golden.

I will ask the question one more time:

Biblically speaking, on what scriptural basis do we have to show an Eastern Orthodox Christian where they are doctrinally wrong, and historically and denominationally speaking, how they cannot possibly claim they have carried on the tradition of pure Orthodoxy of the Apostolic Church?

Keep in mind, many will die living in error and yet be saved. Sincere ignorance will be pardoned. But it does not make the error right. God's true remnant Church, His body of believers the world over, the last generation, will be unspotted with false doctrine (lies) according to Revelation 14:5, and "without fault".

[Lysimachus]

The true church is everyone who follows Jesus. The true church is not an organization formally established in 1863. It's existed for as long as Jesus has been in the world.

Whether this is true or not, this argument does not matter.

Because organized or not, God's true remnant, last-day-people are UNITED on doctrine.

[SivartM]

Of course the Adventist movement was led by God. But it's not "God's #1 Church!". I believe even the Fundamental Beliefs say that the church is composed of all believers.

But, have at it. I can guess that you won't make many friends by trying to prove everyone wrong, though.

[M. T. Cross]

You ask:

Quote:

The question is: Are their doctrines Biblical?

What are there doctrines exactly?

Okay, so then Eastern Orthodox Christians hold the true, uncomprimised, unadulterated religion of the Bible.

Right?

We can show why the Catholic Church is not the true Church, but what arguments would we use for Eastern Orthodox?

You obviously think you know the answer to the first question.

http://www.philtar.ac.uk/encyclopedia/christ/east/eastorth.html

That should answer your second question

The answer to your third would likely be - yes I bet they think they do just as much as you think the SDA church. Bet it could be argued until Satan and God patch up their differences and become best buddies and you still would not find common ground - because you don't want to see it.

The answer to your fourth question simply is this. They are not SDA's so in your opinion they are not the true church. Oddly enough likely the same thing they would say about you.

There you go, all your questions answered.

I still stick with my original solution. Sit down with one and pull out your Bibles, read together and discuss together, ask questions of one another, pray to your common God together. Put the faith you claim to have to the test by trusting him to give you both the same answer.

[Lysimachus]

EmptyCross,

You still aren't understanding what I'm saying, so I feel as though I'm wasting my breath.

While I appreciate the links, you keep thinking that I am trying to prove that the SDA church is the true church and Eastern Orthodox is a false church.

That is not my purpose or the purpose of this thread whatsoever.

I'm only trying to understand "WHAT biblical grounds do SDAs use to reject or disprove Eastern Orthodox theology?"

In other words, not whether they are wrong or not, but what arguments from the bible have traditionally been used. That way I can evaluate them for myself.

Also, Eastern Orthodox believe they have faithfully carried the tradition of the Apostles, with all their rites and ceremonies and priesthood, etc.

On what historical basis have Adventists used to show why this is not so. In other words, what have been the arguments they have used.

Not whether they are right or wrong. That can come after.

Are you now understanding more the nature of my questions?

My apologies for not making myself as clear as I would have liked.

[SivartM]

I think the traditional argument is that tradition doesn't matter, so because they have corrupt doctrines the apostolic succession doesn't matter.