Is SDA's Sunday worship move a compromise?

[Windsor]

Thursday, 19 January, 2012 - 00:43

The controversial decision by the SDA church administration in Samoa to worship on Sunday has drawn many letters on the issue from Seventh-day Adventists around the world.

Many are critical of the inconsistency in the position of the Samoa-Tokelau Mission by rejecting Saturday as the 7th day of the week following the Government's decision for Samoa to align with Australia and New Zealand (west of the IDL), hence the reason for now worshipping on Sunday; and on the other hand accepting the new 'working week' from Monday to Friday.

Bloggers on www.SSnet.org (Sabbath School Network site) and www.spectrummagazine.orghave also raised an observation regarding a convenient compromise by the SDA church in Samoa should there be a Sunday Law.

"Can I flee to Samoa to avoid persecution when the worldwide Sunday law happens and at the same time keep my Sabbath with a clear conscience?"

"I wonder indeed if we can move to Samoa when the Sunday Laws come - and keep Sabbath on Sunday?"

Dr. Allen Sonter a respected Seventh-day Adventist educator and missionary from Australia who lived and worked in (Western) Samoa and Tonga for a number of years, and also worked in the SDA (CPUM) office for 6 years highlighted the complexity of the Samoa issue, "My work then involved crossing the date line frequently. In fact, I recall one 8-week period when I did not have two consecutive weeks of the same length. My weeks would be 7-days 8-days, 7-days 6-days, 7 days, 8 days, 6-day, 7-days. Sometimes the only flight we could get from Rarotonga to Auckland was on a Friday afternoon, so we would take off late Friday afternoon, cross the date line in the evening, and land in Auckland on Saturday night. Where did Sabbath go? I hated that flight, because I missed a Sabbath! Incidentally, I also missed my birthday one year, and Christmas day another year."

"The Bible gives no instruction about how to handle the date-line issue, and it also says nothing about where on the surface of the earth the Sabbath begins and ends. Therefore, if God has not seen fit to make that issue clear, it is obviously not a matter that is vital to our salvation. Therefore, in seeking a solution to the issue we must look to underlying principles that govern our relationship to God and to our fellow believers."

"The Sabbath is a sign of the fact that the LORD is our God (Ezekiel 20, 12, 20). Therefore in handling the date-line issue the basic principle that should guide our decision is that our keeping of the Sabbath should mark us as being loyal to God, as opposed to following a man-made day of rest. If the Adventist teaching about the mark of the beast being the false Sunday / Sabbath is true, then to worship on the Sunday (even though sunset to sunset instead of midnight to midnight) gives a mixed message in regard to our loyalty to God. To argue that Sunday in Tonga, and in the new-order (Western) Samoa, is really the seventh day of the week, is to mount an argument to which there is no definitive answer, because, as I noted earlier, the Bible is silent on the facts that are needed to prove one's point. Which solution to the issue most clearly applies the principle that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment is a sign of our loyalty to God? When I was travelling frequently across the date-line, I took the view that the right thing for me to do in being loyal to God, was to keep the day accepted as the Sabbath wherever I happened to be. Applying the same principle to the (Western) Samoa situation, the right thing to do might be to continue keeping Saturday in the new-order (Western) Samoa."

"I recall that on one occasion in Tonga I was speaking with a delegation from the British government, and one senior officer said, "The Adventist church in Tonga has been very astute in getting around the strong Sunday legislation in Tonga by arguing that in Tonga the seventh day of the week is really Sunday." So from the point of view of an educated outsider looking at the situation in Tonga, it appeared that the Adventist solution to the moving date-line problem did not indicate loyalty to God, but rather the opposite - a convenient compromise, and a rather opportunistic one at that!"

"I realize that if the church in (Western) Samoa were to change with the changing date-line, and worship on the new Saturday, that would constitute a de-facto admission that the Tongan church had made a mistake by deciding to keep Sunday in Tonga all these years, and that would be an embarrassment to the Tongan church. We must also realize that the church in American Samoa is affected by whatever decision is made."

"Now, just to complicate things even further, another underlying principle comes into the picture. That is the principle that we are to consider the effects of our behavior on our fellow believers. Paul tells us that we are not to behave in a way that offends our brother who is weak in the faith (Romans 14: 13). If the church in (Western) Samoa were to change to the Saturday Sabbath in the new-order (Western) Samoa, they may seriously offend their fellow believers in Tonga, and will affect the members in American Samoa. So should the church in Tonga also change and start worshipping on Saturday? I do not know the answer to that, but what I do know is that the churches in both (Western) Samoa and American Samoa, as well as in Tonga, are in this together, and that the final decision should not be imposed by anyone else. I believe there should be a combined meeting of a wide representation of the Tongan and Samoan churches, with a small number of representatives from the NZP Union, the SPD, and the General Conference present to give counsel, but not to take part in the actual decision making process. The matter should be prayerfully discussed under the guidance of the Holy Spirit until a clear consensus among the believers is reached."

"When consensus has been reached, the believers in (Western) Samoa alone must make the final decision about the Sabbath in (Western) Samoa. If a decision were to be reached to keep Saturday as the Sabbath in (Western) Samoa, Tongan representatives may wish to make some recommendation about the Sabbath in Tonga, which in turn would need to be handled by the believers in Tonga. Any attempt from the outside to impose a decision on the church in (Western) Samoa is likely to cause a split in the church."

With the growing discontent, the SDA church may need to go into damage control.

Source: eventpolynesia.com

[miz3]

Thursday, 19 January, 2012 - 00:43

The controversial decision by the SDA church administration in Samoa to worship on Sunday has drawn many letters on the issue from Seventh-day Adventists around the world.

Many are critical of the inconsistency in the position of the Samoa-Tokelau Mission by rejecting Saturday as the 7th day of the week following the Government's decision for Samoa to align with Australia and New Zealand (west of the IDL), hence the reason for now worshipping on Sunday; and on the other hand accepting the new 'working week' from Monday to Friday.

Bloggers on www.SSnet.org (Sabbath School Network site) and www.spectrummagazine.orghave also raised an observation regarding a convenient compromise by the SDA church in Samoa should there be a Sunday Law.

"Can I flee to Samoa to avoid persecution when the worldwide Sunday law happens and at the same time keep my Sabbath with a clear conscience?"

"I wonder indeed if we can move to Samoa when the Sunday Laws come - and keep Sabbath on Sunday?"

Dr. Allen Sonter a respected Seventh-day Adventist educator and missionary from Australia who lived and worked in (Western) Samoa and Tonga for a number of years, and also worked in the SDA (CPUM) office for 6 years highlighted the complexity of the Samoa issue, "My work then involved crossing the date line frequently. In fact, I recall one 8-week period when I did not have two consecutive weeks of the same length. My weeks would be 7-days 8-days, 7-days 6-days, 7 days, 8 days, 6-day, 7-days. Sometimes the only flight we could get from Rarotonga to Auckland was on a Friday afternoon, so we would take off late Friday afternoon, cross the date line in the evening, and land in Auckland on Saturday night. Where did Sabbath go? I hated that flight, because I missed a Sabbath! Incidentally, I also missed my birthday one year, and Christmas day another year."

"The Bible gives no instruction about how to handle the date-line issue, and it also says nothing about where on the surface of the earth the Sabbath begins and ends. Therefore, if God has not seen fit to make that issue clear, it is obviously not a matter that is vital to our salvation. Therefore, in seeking a solution to the issue we must look to underlying principles that govern our relationship to God and to our fellow believers."

"The Sabbath is a sign of the fact that the LORD is our God (Ezekiel 20, 12, 20). Therefore in handling the date-line issue the basic principle that should guide our decision is that our keeping of the Sabbath should mark us as being loyal to God, as opposed to following a man-made day of rest. If the Adventist teaching about the mark of the beast being the false Sunday / Sabbath is true, then to worship on the Sunday (even though sunset to sunset instead of midnight to midnight) gives a mixed message in regard to our loyalty to God. To argue that Sunday in Tonga, and in the new-order (Western) Samoa, is really the seventh day of the week, is to mount an argument to which there is no definitive answer, because, as I noted earlier, the Bible is silent on the facts that are needed to prove one's point. Which solution to the issue most clearly applies the principle that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment is a sign of our loyalty to God? When I was travelling frequently across the date-line, I took the view that the right thing for me to do in being loyal to God, was to keep the day accepted as the Sabbath wherever I happened to be. Applying the same principle to the (Western) Samoa situation, the right thing to do might be to continue keeping Saturday in the new-order (Western) Samoa."

"I recall that on one occasion in Tonga I was speaking with a delegation from the British government, and one senior officer said, "The Adventist church in Tonga has been very astute in getting around the strong Sunday legislation in Tonga by arguing that in Tonga the seventh day of the week is really Sunday." So from the point of view of an educated outsider looking at the situation in Tonga, it appeared that the Adventist solution to the moving date-line problem did not indicate loyalty to God, but rather the opposite - a convenient compromise, and a rather opportunistic one at that!"

"I realize that if the church in (Western) Samoa were to change with the changing date-line, and worship on the new Saturday, that would constitute a de-facto admission that the Tongan church had made a mistake by deciding to keep Sunday in Tonga all these years, and that would be an embarrassment to the Tongan church. We must also realize that the church in American Samoa is affected by whatever decision is made."

"Now, just to complicate things even further, another underlying principle comes into the picture. That is the principle that we are to consider the effects of our behavior on our fellow believers. Paul tells us that we are not to behave in a way that offends our brother who is weak in the faith (Romans 14: 13). If the church in (Western) Samoa were to change to the Saturday Sabbath in the new-order (Western) Samoa, they may seriously offend their fellow believers in Tonga, and will affect the members in American Samoa. So should the church in Tonga also change and start worshipping on Saturday? I do not know the answer to that, but what I do know is that the churches in both (Western) Samoa and American Samoa, as well as in Tonga, are in this together, and that the final decision should not be imposed by anyone else. I believe there should be a combined meeting of a wide representation of the Tongan and Samoan churches, with a small number of representatives from the NZP Union, the SPD, and the General Conference present to give counsel, but not to take part in the actual decision making process. The matter should be prayerfully discussed under the guidance of the Holy Spirit until a clear consensus among the believers is reached."

"When consensus has been reached, the believers in (Western) Samoa alone must make the final decision about the Sabbath in (Western) Samoa. If a decision were to be reached to keep Saturday as the Sabbath in (Western) Samoa, Tongan representatives may wish to make some recommendation about the Sabbath in Tonga, which in turn would need to be handled by the believers in Tonga. Any attempt from the outside to impose a decision on the church in (Western) Samoa is likely to cause a split in the church."

With the growing discontent, the SDA church may need to go into damage control.

Source: eventpolynesia.com

Very interesting.

[Gibs]

Maybe EGW saw this coming, posted to consider,

" The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure. {1SM 204.2}

Who has authority to begin such a movement? We have our Bibles. We have our experience, attested to by the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. We have a truth that admits of no compromise. Shall we not repudiate everything that is not in harmony with this truth? {1SM 205.1}

I hesitated and delayed about the sending out of that which the Spirit of the Lord impelled me to write. I did not want to be compelled to present the misleading influence of these sophistries. But in the providence of God, the errors that have been coming in must be met." {1SM 205.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

EGW worshipped on Sunday. She even spoke to Sunday churches.

I find nothing wrong with going to church on Sunday.

But, the only DAY to keep holy - is Saturday.

[Gibs]

An added thought on this is something that one of our old warriors saw and wrote a book about. I can't remember now what Joe was driving against but was loved by a very many but I know not all.

Joe Crews had a name he used for it in a book he wrote, "creeping compromise" so it comes in so slow it is not detected for what it is. They sell it so well that it can't be seen.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Windsor]

It's a little more complicated in that they are simply keeping the same 7th day they've kept their whole life. It just so happens that their government now considers that day to be the 1st day.

[Woody]

Yeah. Joe Crews would probably call them worshipping on Sunday - a compromise. But I don't think it to be that.

[Gibs]

Yes Windsor, That is a strnge twist on things and I wonder how that will come out. Wonder if it bothers the Sunday keeping people. No if they are still keeping the true Seveneth day then the Sunday keepers must be doing it on actually Monday. And then is their Mon. actually tues., sounds like a real mixed up affair.

But now so many are proclaiming Jesus is the Sabbath rest, well could be if they come and tabernacle with him in the window of time He comes to be with His own and from Enoch the Holy Angels and earth are in sync.

Anyhow Adventism need to stand solidly fast.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Tom Wetmore]

They are following the commandment that says to keep the seventh day as the Sabbath. They simple continued keeping the same seventh day they had been keeping before the government changed its name. Had they been oblivious to the date line moving, their weekly routine would have been exactly as they are now doing, resting on the Sabbath, the seventh-day. They did nothing different than they had for years. What changed was the government name for that day, calling it Sunday.

The Bible does not name any day of the week, it numbers them - 1st day, second day, etc. Only the seventh day gets a name after its purpose, the Sabbath, or rest day. I had an interesting conversation with a man that insisted that we shouldn't do any different today if we truly follow Scripture. So he adamantly refused to use the calendar names of the week - 1st day, second day, etc.

[Patrick Lawrence]

Did you know they had already moved a day in the 19th century. "Samoan Islands and Tokelau

The Samoan Islands—today divided into Samoa and American Samoa—were west of the date line until 1892, when King Malietoa Laupepa was persuaded by American traders to adopt the American date, being three hours behind California, to replace the former Asian date, being four hours ahead of Japan. The change was made by repeating Monday 4 July 1892, American Independence Day.[7][8]

In 2011, more than 119 years after that change was made, Samoa shifted back to west of the date line by skipping Friday 30 December 2011.[9] This changed the timezone from UTC−11 to UTC+13 (and from UTC−10 to UTC+14 during daylight saving time).[7] The International Date Line now passes between Samoa and American Samoa, with American Samoa remaining aligned with the American date." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Date_Line

[miz3]

The Dateline is not a real line but a man made artificial line.

When we move the "line" nothing really changes except the labels we give the days of the week.

Whatever the local calendar says is the "Seventh Day" I view that as the Sabbath.

Tom is correct that the Bible does not tell us the "name" of the day of the week, it just says, "the seventh day" is holy.

Is that "Eden Time" or is it "sinful sun calculating" time?

[12tribes]

It's a little more complicated in that they are simply keeping the same 7th day they've kept their whole life. It just so happens that their government now considers that day to be the 1st day.

i agree it is more complicated. Would it be so easy to change the day they worship? What if we were asked to change our day because the date line changed?

[Q.E.D.]

Interesting bits of trivia from Wikipedia.

"In Christianity it is also important to hold services on the correct day. Generally, the Christian calendar follows the legal calendar, and the Christian date line is on the same place as the international date line. One important issue exists in the Orthodox countries, where the Julian calendar is followed for religious purposes but the Gregorian calendar for civilian purposes. The two calendars have the same weekdays, so the main issue is when to celebrate Easter, Christmas and other main holidays. In Tonga, the Seventh Day Adventists(who usually observe the sabbath on a Saturday) observe the sabbath on a Sunday, officially due to an anomaly in the International Date Line which makes Sunday really Saturday."

"The concept of an international date line is first mentioned in a 12th-century Talmudic commentary [6][7] which seems to indicate that the day changes in an area where the time is six hours ahead of Jerusalem (90 degrees east of Jerusalem, a line running through the Philippines). This line, which he refers to as the K'tzai Hamizrach (the easternmost line), is used to calculate the day of Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year. According to some sources it is alluded to in the Talmud (Rosh Hashanah and Eruvin) as well as in the Jerusalem Talmud."

[KiwiJohn]

The Adentists in Samoa have made a terrible mistake by accusing the government of changing the calendar and renaming the days. This is not true. The same calendar will be used. The government of Samoa said they were realigning with the dateline. All it required was for the Adventists to "skip a day" the same way the do when they fly across the dateline. All that's happened is the whiole country has crossed the dateline. They skipped a day, but the Adventists, as usual, know better. We're so like the Israelites! Horror of horrors, Adventists now worship on Sunday!

[Gibs]

Sounds to me like they are still keeping the true Seventh day which has not been lost or never will be.

This dateline thing is the rub. As the earth turns and at the end of the sixth day at sundown the Sabbath begins, don't make any difference were on earth.

But the day is coming I do think you'll see many SDA's taking this verse to do the will of the world over God.

Ro 13:1 ¶ Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

But we better admonish all to take this one instead.

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Kevin H]

The Dateline is not a real line but a man made artificial line.

When we move the "line" nothing really changes except the labels we give the days of the week.

Whatever the local calendar says is the "Seventh Day" I view that as the Sabbath.

Tom is correct that the Bible does not tell us the "name" of the day of the week, it just says, "the seventh day" is holy.

Is that "Eden Time" or is it "sinful sun calculating" time?

The Bible says to keep the Sabbath from sunset to sunset. At the exile many Hebrews went east to Assyria and later Babylon, or west to Egypt. Those left in the land and along the way set up a series of smoke signals for when there were most of the holy days in Jerusalem. However they kept the Sabbath when the sun set where they were.

Those in Egypt started Sabbath when the sun set in Egypt. Those left in the land started the Sabbath when the sun set there, those in Babylon kept Sabbath when the sun set there, those who were taken to the location of the old Assyrian empire started Sabbath when the sun set there. Seeing that the Bible was still being written at the time, people like Jeremiah in Egypt and Ezekiel in Babylon, if God had any issue with this should have let his people know through these or other prophets of the time.

Also, Eden time, Eden was a bit south of Babylon. Moses lead out with Sabbath keeping and wrote Sunset to sunset based on Sinai time, a bit west from where Eden was. Thus Moses was keeping the sinful sun calculating time.

In addition there were converts to YHWH from the trade routes that would pass through Judah and Israel, some of these pockets were as far away as China. They kept Sabbath when the sun set there. As the Hebrews went to places around Europe, such as Rome or Greece, they started keeping the Sabbath when the sun set there. If this was wrong to do then why didn't Paul or Peter or John correct the error instead of continuing the error?

[skyblue888]

They kept the Sabbath when the sun set there.

Simple.

sky

[Kevin H]

They kept the Sabbath when the sun set there.

Simple.

sky

Exactly, they kept the Sabbath when the sun set where they were. They moved it later as they went west and earlier in the east, so where we have the dateline is close enough for what they practiced.

Other holydays were based on when it was the holyday in the land and they had a series of smoke signals to let Jews know when to start and end the holidays. But the Sabbath was simply sun set where ever they were.

[skyblue888]

Right on.

We do the same today.

If I go to the Philippines for some time, I will be observing the Sabbath from sunset to sunset, at a different time I am used to here in Canada.

sky

[phkrause]

Amen brothers, Amen

[Alchemy]

We need to remember that the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord our God. And that from evening to evening shall we celebrate our Sabbaths.

We must practice what God has revealed in His word, regardless of what day it falls on. Neither Saturday, Sunday or Tuesday are in the Bible. We don't keep Saturday, but the Sabbath, which is on the seventh day.

[Windsor]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The Dateline is not a real line but a man made artificial line.

When we move the "line" nothing really changes except the labels we give the days of the week.

Whatever the local calendar says is the "Seventh Day" I view that as the Sabbath.

Tom is correct that the Bible does not tell us the "name" of the day of the week, it just says, "the seventh day" is holy.

Is that "Eden Time" or is it "sinful sun calculating" time?

The Bible says to keep the Sabbath from sunset to sunset. At the exile many Hebrews went east to Assyria and later Babylon, or west to Egypt. Those left in the land and along the way set up a series of smoke signals for when there were most of the holy days in Jerusalem. However they kept the Sabbath when the sun set where they were.

Those in Egypt started Sabbath when the sun set in Egypt. Those left in the land started the Sabbath when the sun set there, those in Babylon kept Sabbath when the sun set there, those who were taken to the location of the old Assyrian empire started Sabbath when the sun set there. Seeing that the Bible was still being written at the time, people like Jeremiah in Egypt and Ezekiel in Babylon, if God had any issue with this should have let his people know through these or other prophets of the time.

Also, Eden time, Eden was a bit south of Babylon. Moses lead out with Sabbath keeping and wrote Sunset to sunset based on Sinai time, a bit west from where Eden was. Thus Moses was keeping the sinful sun calculating time.

In addition there were converts to YHWH from the trade routes that would pass through Judah and Israel, some of these pockets were as far away as China. They kept Sabbath when the sun set there. As the Hebrews went to places around Europe, such as Rome or Greece, they started keeping the Sabbath when the sun set there. If this was wrong to do then why didn't Paul or Peter or John correct the error instead of continuing the error?

How were you able to determine where the antediluvian paradise, that went to Heaven at the time of the great deluge, existed in today's post pangea landscape? Certainly not from the names of modern or even 600 BC rivers that have no relationship whatsoever (outside of name) to those around antediluvian Eden.