15-year-old stabs hypnotherapist mother 111 times

[Ron Lambert]

The big news in the Detroit area right now is this:

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ROCHESTER HILLS - Over and over again, 111 times, a teenager stabbed his mother in the head, neck and eyes, authorities say.

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Why? No one knows for sure. Diane Michele, 50, had recently discovered that her son had been looking at pornographic and weapons-related Web sites. And Christopher Dankovich had also recently been in trouble in Bloomfield Hills after officers there caught him rattling the doors at a church-school.

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But Christopher is a boy without a violent past, authorities say. The viciousness of the attack stunned investigators, who are at a loss as to why the 15-year-old - charged as an adult Tuesday with open murder - would kill in such a manner.

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"This is one of the most horrific crime scenes (anyone) has ever seen," said Assistant Oakland County Prosecutor Kelly Chard.

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The body of Michele, a certified hypnotherapist, minister and social worker who ran the HeartLight Metaphysical Center in Birmingham, was found by her mother at about 8 a.m. Monday. Michele was partially covered by a tarp in the foyer of her home at 3160 Palm Aire Drive in Rochester Hills.

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Here is the link for the article: The Oakland Press, Wed. April 27, 2005

According to the article, the kid's mother was a certified hypnotherapist, minister, and social worker. Could there be any connection between the fact that she was a hypnotherapist, and the fact that he stabbed her 111 times in the neck, head, and eyes? Stabbing someone 111 times seems like obsessive-compulsive behavior. But in the eyes?

Wouldn't it be likely that the kid's mother may have practiced hypnosis on him, perhaps many times?

Ellen G. White said that hypnosis (she referred to it as Mesmerism) tends to open up the soul to control by devils. Is it possible that this 15-year-old kid is actually devil-possessed?

[cricket]

We only have the facts as the media presents them to us. Perhaps the best thing is to leave the questioning to the authorities involved.

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"It's a tragedy and we don't want to go overboard with it," said Adams senior Brandon Busuito. "We're just trying not to start rumors."

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[Liz]

I think that anyone who murders another, especially in such a horrific way, is possessed by at least one demon.

Liz

[Nicodema]

The number 111 is significant. I would not be surprised if the kid were possessed, but I don't think it is right to start faulting the mother for it if this is the case. Kids know how to wander into all kinds of places nowadays and seek their own experiences, and it is clear from the article that he was becoming obsessed with weapons and porn. I can't think of anything more satanic than instruments of death/maiming and the cheapened commoditization of sex. Mindless lust and blood-lust are directly satanic in nature by themselves, with or without any kind of occultic overtone.

[Ron Lambert]

Why would he stab her in the eyes? I have never heard of anyone being stabbed in the eyes. But if the kid had been hypnotized numerous times, wouldn't the eys of the hypnotist draw his attention?

I am not blaming the mother, even if she did practice hypnosis on her son. The point is, hypnosis is dangerous.

[Bravus]

There is a pretty well-established psychopathology around wounding the eyes of a victim, related to the gaze: in very simple terms, the message is 'stop looking at me'. Ron's hypnosis theory is entirely speculative but has some plausibility, but it also needn't be hypnosis, just excessive surveillance/shaming.

[Nicodema]

What Bravus said. And I agree, hypnosis is dangerous. Even in the occult one is warned not to give control of the mind over to another human being through something of that nature.

[Anthony!]

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According to the article, the kid's mother was a certified hypnotherapist, minister, and social worker. Could there be any connection between the fact that she was a hypnotherapist, and the fact that he stabbed her 111 times in the neck, head, and eyes? Stabbing someone 111 times seems like obsessive-compulsive behavior. But in the eyes?

Wouldn't it be likely that the kid's mother may have practiced hypnosis on him, perhaps many times?

Ellen G. White said that hypnosis (she referred to it as Mesmerism) tends to open up the soul to control by devils. Is it possible that this 15-year-old kid is actually devil-possessed?

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Hello Ron,

I agree with Christine, let's not speculate or worry about that. I am sure that you can find out plenty in the tabloids about this soon... So let us avoid turning this thread and forum into a tabloid. The world is watching us...

[Ron Lambert]

Anthony, we SDA Christians today seem to have an embarassment about the idea of devil-possession. Secularists laugh at the accounts of Christ casting out devils in the Bible. Is this the real reason you wish to tone down or outright avoid any discussion of devil-possession as a real possibility? Should we be so intimidated by secularists' laughter?

If indeed it is possible that the practice of hypnosis could open the way for demonic control, shouldn't people be warned? While we don't know for sure if that is the case here in this tragic event, the facts that the kid stabbed his mother 111 times in the eyes, head, and neck, and she is a certified hypnotherapist, surely seem reasonably suggestive. If we warn kids away from using Ouija boards, shouldn't we consider whether a news story such as this should be regarded as cautionary concerning use of hypnosis?

I do not mean to blame the mother for deliberately doing something wrong--likely she was ignorant of the spiritual dangers of hypnosis. How tempting would it be for a hypnotherapist parent to use hypnosis as a means for controlling a teenaged son?

If people are dangerously ignorant about the spiritual dangers of hypnosis, then perhaps it is precisely because we have failed to warn them, out of fear of being ridiculed.

[Nicodema]

I have to confess that I'm a little confused about the whole "worry about how we look" mentality too. I am NOT criticizing anyone here, just saying I honestly don't understand it. To me we can only "look like" exactly what we are, and should only look like what we really are. If we pretend to be something we are not, as a people, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (is my thinking on the matter). If we are genuinely curious about how such a bizarre crime could come to be committed, then we are curious, simple as that.

Ron mentioned embarrassment about the idea of devil possession. Maybe we do worry too much about being seen as throwbacks, unscientific, whatever. I can only speak for myself of course, I know I feel self-conscious when I can't put a modern label to my own problems or when I have to defend (or stifle) my belief in Creation and a Creator because I cannot substantiate it scientifically (in fact the Bible states it is impossible to do so because the things that now are were made of things that DO NOT appear, and all we can do is study what does appear).

Anyway, I'm rambling and getting off topic so I'll put a sock in it now!

[Anthony!]

Hello folks,

My concern is that we are addressing an incident with real victims of tragedy, and speculating as to the motives of the alleged perpetrator. Put yourself in the shoes of the family and loved ones... would YOU want to find strangers on the Internet speculating regarding intent and motives of your loved one?

I somehow find that grasping to find a connection with the victim/mother as hypnotist to son as murderer is akin to a victim/woman as sexually provacative to a man as rapist. 'Hhhhmmmm... she must have done something to inspire or cause this.'

If you want to write about the dangers of hypnotism/demon-possession/murder etc., please do so in a general fashion without specifically pointing to the tragic and unfortunate incident here. If there are lessons to be learned, let those who are involved with the case (family, law enforcement, lawyers, judicial, etc.) proclaim them.

For goodness' sake folks, please show some sensitivity here. Please don't set up these individuals as straw men in the guise of and/or purpose of spiritual warning.

Nico, what I mean by 'the world is watching' is I don't care for millions to make an Internet search on this case and find us, as Christians, speculating on this incident and calling the name of Christ into disrepute by attaching demon-possession to individuals.

That is a terrible stigma, and there is NO WAY, unless through divine revelation and a VERY close walk with Christ, that we can tell if this is 1) a psychological problem which Satan has taken advantage of, 2) Satan-inspired, 3) express demon possession, or 4) something else entirely. Only God knows this for sure.

By writing this I am not intending to negate sound Biblical teaching. This is meant to be corrective rather than balanced.

How very sad this case is.

[Nicodema]

Anthony, thank you for indulging me with your explanation about what you meant and how you feel about it. I think you are right about some key points, namely: (1) only God can know for sure what caused this; (2) speculation about whether the victim did something to provoke it smacks of similar speculation about rape victims and is inappropriate (I totally agree); and (3) it is not considerate to the feelings of family & loved ones of these folks to sit around speculating on a painful and tragic event.

I'm going to end my participation in this thread on that note. Whatever happened between this boy and his mother is very sad indeed. If we involve ourselves in any way it should be to pray for this boy and his family. Thanks for being so candid about your thoughts and for not taking my inquiry personally in a negative way.

Nico

[Ron Lambert]

Anthony, you are mistaken in your analogy. No one has been speculating about "motives." The mother may have used hypnosis on her son; it is certainly likely. But that would only mean she used something dangerous without realizing it was dangerous. This has nothing to do with motive whatsover.

Here we have a teenager who stabbed his mother 111 times, in the eyes, head, and neck, and he had no history of being violent. The secular world will not even consider the possibility that he could have been devil-possessed. If his defense attorney suggested that for a defense, he would probably be laughed out of court. But should we refrain from considering what is the most obvioius explanation to people like us who do believe in the supernatural as real, and who have the testimonies of Ellen G. White warning us against hypnotism as opening the soul to demonic control? Do we believe this or not? The refusal of some of us even to consider this says alot about what is wrong with Laodicea.

If anyone is at fault, if anyone has wrong motives, it is us as a religious community, for failing to bear faithful witness to the public about the dangers of hypnosis. We are like "the dumb dogs that would not bark."

[NormF]

Ron wrote:

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Do we believe this or not? The refusal of some of us even to consider this says alot about what is wrong with Laodicea.

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This post, and this topic as set up, say more about a particular mindset - what it sees and how it functions. There are other Adventist believers who do not share this belief statement.

It is one thing to claim affinity with a certain take. It is quite another for one who does not hold a position as a recognized, authorized spokesperson to be claiming in a priori, over-generalized fashion to be the mouthpiece for the entire body, disregarding the clear presence of significant, meaningful differences within it.

More than that, belief statements in general are not good starting points for the definitive ascertainment of a particular item - like the validity or invalidity of a process or protocol - especially when those belief statements lie in a whirlpool of disagreement, and research largely does not support the assertions. The cart is before the horse.

In plain words, I disagree; and I think Anthony spoke well.

Further, those among us without verifiable expertise would do well to hold our peace on this matter. And limit ourselves to where we can be helpful - providing words of comfort and support to the bereaved. They must be in terrible pain, facing their awful loss.

I can't support this woman carte blanche, but I'm not going to categorically condemn the use of hypnotism either. I don't have enough facts to make a reasonable evaluation of her situation. One thing is certain: I'm not going to inflict on her family and friends at a time like this a heavy load of condemnation set coldly against their lost loved one. Even if it were so, this simply is not the time or place.

My heart goes out to them.

Regards,

Norm

[Ron Lambert]

NormE, you are entitled to believe or not believe what you wish. But all Bible-believing Christians do believe that devils are real, and if access is given to them, they can exercise various degrees of control over people. The Bible shows Jesus casting out demons, who speak to Jesus and who respond to His commands. If you do not believe this, you cannot call yourself a Bible-believing Christian. You have set your own human judgment above God's Word, and decided that you will arbitrate according to your wisdom what in the Bible to believe or not.

Also, most Seventh-day Adventists believe that Ellen G. White had the prophetic gift, and we tend to believe she was probably informed by inspiration when she wrote against hypnosis (mesmerism, or "mind science," as she calls it). I believe we should go by the Bible over Ellen G. White in deciding Bible doctrine, or the interpretation of Bible prophecy; but nonetheless, even if she is not reporting directly something she received in vision, she still was a mature Christian with an advanced experience who had the privilege of seeing and speaking with Jesus and with angels, so anything she says should be considered seriously. Of course, there are some among us who do not wish to accept anything that Ellen G. White said if it conflicts with what they prefer to believe.

If that is where you stand, then I was certainly not speaking of or for you when I charged that Laodicea is to blame for the world not being sufficiently warned about the serious spiritual dangers associated with hypnosis. But by the same token, your attempt to criticize me is invalid. I spoke properly within the constraints of core SDA belief.

And if we are going to look at a case where a teenager with no history of violent behavior suddenly stabs his mother 111 times in the eyes, head, and neck, and where his mother was a certified hypnotherapist who also was a New Age Metaphysics "minister," and not consider that this might possibly be a case that demonstrates the spiritual dangers of hypnotism and possibly New Age spiritualism as well, then what else could possibly qualify as such a case?

[Ron Lambert]

Here are a few statements by Ellen G. White about hypnotism:

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The theory of mind controlling mind was originated by Satan to introduce himself as the chief worker, to put human philosophy where divine philosophy should be. Of all the errors that are finding acceptance among professedly Christian people, none is a more dangerous deception, none more certain to separate man from God, than is this. Innocent though it may appear, if exercised upon patients, it will tend to their destruction, not to their restoration.

It opens a door through which Satan will enter to take possession both of the mind that is given up to be controlled by another and of the mind that controls.

--MH 243 (1905). {2MCP 712.2}

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Men and women are not to study the science of how to take captive the minds of those who associate with them. This is the science that Satan teaches. We are to resist everything of the kind. We are not to tamper with mesmerism and hypnotism --the science of the one who lost his first estate and was cast out of the heavenly courts.--MS 86, 1905. (MM 110, 111.) {2MCP 713.2}

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Satan exercised his power of hypnotism over Adam and Eve, and this power he strove to exercise over Christ. But after the word of Scripture was quoted, Satan knew that he had no chance of triumphing.--Lt 159, 1903. (5BC 1081.) {2MCP 713.1}

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Cut away from yourselves everything that savors of hypnotism,

the science by which satanic agencies work.

--Lt 20, 1902. (2SM 350.) {2MCP 716.3}

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I told him that the Lord had shown me in vision that mesmerism was from the devil, from the bottomless pit, and that it would soon go there, with those who continued to use it. {EW 21.2}

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[NormF]

Your responses underscore my observation regarding your mindset.

Have you no pity, or even a droplet of concern, for the family and friends of the deceased when you make statements like you're doing about her? I wince at the pain you may be inflicting. Consider the larger context before wrapping your robes about you as you pass by.

Regards,

Norm

[Anthony!]

Hello Ron,

Once again, I do not negate the Bible and SOP counsel and word regarding the reality of Satan/demon possession. What I am concerned with is that you are positing an assumptive question regarding this particular case that the 15-year is demon-possessed.

Thus, I must reiterate:

There is NO WAY, unless through divine revelation and a VERY close walk with Christ, that YOU or I can tell if this is 1) a psychological problem which Satan has taken advantage of, 2) Satan-inspired, 3) express demon possession, or 4) something else entirely. Only God knows this for sure.

Please notice the different degrees in the above...

[Ron Lambert]

Norm, how much concern and genuine love for any people do we show when we fail to warn them of the spiritual dangers of hypnotism? If you don't believe that what Ellen G. White said was true, as seems evident, then really your argument is with our beliefs.

[NormF]

Sadly, it's still true: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." I don't know what else to say.

Regards,

Norm

[Naomi]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

I don't have enough facts to make a reasonable evaluation of her situation. One thing is certain: I'm not going to inflict on her family and friends at a time like this a heavy load of condemnation set coldly against their lost loved one. Even if it were so, this simply is not the time or place.

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Thank you Norm

[Ron Lambert]

If this is not the time or place, then when is? Would you ever warn anyone about the grave spiritual dangers associated with hypnotism, and with New Age "metaphysics"?

For fear of offending someone, or hurting their sensibilities, would you let multitudes go to destruction, unwarned? This is what Laodicea has been doing up to this point. This is why this unfortunate mother was not warned.

[Anthony!]

[:"red"]Ron:[/]

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If this is not the time or place, then when is? Would you ever warn anyone about the grave spiritual dangers associated with hypnotism, and with New Age "metaphysics"?

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RON! What is up with you?! Don't you get it? Man, you are like Jerry Falwell right after 9/11 when he blamed the liberals, gays and lesbians for the terrorist attacks on that terrible day! He believed it was their fault that 'God removed his protection and blessing from America.' He subsequently apologized, as should you.

Does not our Lord Jesus teach us to be "wise as serpents, but harmless as doves"? - Matt. 10:16

[cricket]

Ron, Anthony,

Absolutely people should be warned. Absolutely, we should be wise as serpents.

This thread, however, was about a particular case and incident. We, members of Club A, do not have all the facts, we can only surmise what truly took place.

Speaking about hypnotism and warning others about giving one's mind to another is a good thing. Let us do it under the pretext of warning others; let us not convict this boy and his mother of these heinous crimes until the facts make it evident. When and if this happens, let us not condemn them, but leave the condemnation up to God. He alone is Omniscient.

[Ron Lambert]

Anthony, you are totally and completely wrong, and it is you who will have to apologize to God for being so self-righteous and insulting and for failing to see your moral duty as a Christian. You failed to answer when you would ever view it as proper to warn people about the serious dangers of hypnotism. This seems like a fair question, since you claimed that a discussion of a case like the present one is not the right time.

And if you have sufficient decency, kindly lay off the insulting and invalid comparisons to Fallwell, 9/11, etc.

Christine, will you please stick to reading what was actually written, and not reading into it things you imagine? No one has talked about condemning the people involved in the news story that began this thread. You invented that yourself, and continue to make this false accusation, even though I have corrected you on this at least three times.

Can't you debate without building a straw man that completely misrepresents your opponent's position?