The Cross of Christ

[Guest]

The Cross of Christ

IN the cross of Christ I glory,

Towering o'er the wrecks of time;

All the light of sacred story

Gathers round its head sublime.

When the woes of life o'er take me,

Mopes deceive, and fears annoy,

Never shall the cross forsake me;

Lo! it glows with peace and joy.

When the sun of bliss is beaming

Light and love upon my way,

From the cross the radiance streaming

Adds new luster to the day.

Bane and blessing, pain and pleasure,

By the cross are sanctified;

Peace is there, that knows no measure,

Joys that through all time abide.

In the cross of Christ I glory,

Towering o'er the wrecks of time;

All the light of sacred story

Gathers round it head sublime.

John Bowring

Taken from the first page of Steven Haskell's book, "The Cross And It's Shadow"

[Dr. Rich]

The disciples never talked about the cross, nor was it a sign. In fact, the 'sign of the cross' came about by Constitine who saw the cross in the sun as a sign of the SUN god--and he was the one that made the sign of the cross (a pagan sign at that) a symbol for the god of the sun--to which he then used it for the symbol for Christianity after he picked which writings to be placed into the NEW bible that he invented.

Even the HISTORY channel had this part right. So don't blame me for this information, blame them and history itself.

[Kevin H]

Dr Rich:

While the history channel points out about Constantine, you are putting more into the story than I ever heard on the history channel and more than I've learned about history.

The cross was a Jewish symbol of the Messiah. It was the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet. In the dead sea scrolls there were many passages with either the first or last letter of the alphabet in the margins. Studying those texts the first letter was by texts seen as talking about God and the last letter dealing with end time and the messiah. Jews then started putting crosses on their graves as a symbol that they were looking forward to the resurection in the messiah's kingdom. It continued as a Jewish symbol for the messiah until the Christians took it over and the Jews and Christians wanted to distance themselves from each other. And it was a Christian symbol before Constantine. Constantine had the cross and circle to get into the information that you are refering to. And the Holy Spirit lead to the Cannon of scripture.

[Dr. Rich]

Kevin H, can you share with us where you found your information from? To the Jews (one side of my family are Jewish) the cross is only a symbol that Christians use because of the words of Paul. I asked them about this and they said that Jews never used the cross for any symbol.

[phkrause]

Kevin H, can you share with us where you found your information from? To the Jews (one side of my family are Jewish) the cross is only a symbol that Christians use because of the words of Paul. I asked them about this and they said that Jews never used the cross for any symbol.

I'm inclined to agree with you on this point Dr Rich. I've never seen any crosses at any Jewish Cemeteries that I've ever visited. Most Jews want nothing to do with the Cross, because if they did it, they would have to accept Jesus. Now if we're talking about Messianic Jews that's another story.

But am also interested as to where Kevin has gotten his info from, because he's usually done a great job as to his research.

[John317]

The cross was a Jewish symbol of the Messiah. It was the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet.

Which letter is that? The last letter is the letter Thaw. Did the Hebrew alphabet have a different last letter in those times?

[John317]

The disciples never talked about the cross, nor was it a sign.

It's true that the church of Peter and Paul's day didn't make the cross a sign of belief in Christ. The sign of Christianity in those days was the fish. The cross itself was understood to be a sign of shame, because only criminals, or the cursed, died on a cross. For this reason, the Apostle Paul says,

Galatians 3:13

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"— {Gal. 3: 13}

And:

"For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

[18] For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." {1 Cor. 1: 17,18}

The Gospel of Matthew also contains the following verse about the cross:

Matthew 10:38

And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Compare Gal. 2: 20--

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The book of Acts records that the discples referred to the crucifixion of Christ in this early statement of Peter:

Acts 2:23

this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

By the time Paul wrote Philippians (55 AD), "the cross" was synonymous with the work of Christ--

Philip. 3:18

For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ.

[Kevin H]

Kevin H, can you share with us where you found your information from? To the Jews (one side of my family are Jewish) the cross is only a symbol that Christians use because of the words of Paul. I asked them about this and they said that Jews never used the cross for any symbol.

Actually one place was the history channel. However the major source is Dr. Jim Fleming's lectures on the crucifiction. The crosses were found in graves in Israel that date to the time of Jesus and for a century or two or so before Jesus. They stopped using the cross because of the Jesus followers. So unless you are an expert in second temple Judaism, studying the dead sea scrolls and have been studying ancient Jewish tombs that date back to the time of Jesus and before, you won't find it on Jewish graves. The cross was a pre-Jesus Jewish symbol of the messiah. They stopped using it because of Jesus.

Yes John, it was the Taw which is now sort of like a three sided square with some markings, but in Jesus day and the dead sea scrolls etc. it was a cross, like our small "T" or an "X" the statement in Revelation "I am the Alpha and Omega" schlors are now saying is a reference to this use of the first and last letters of the Hebrew Alphabet and that it is Jesus saying that he is both God and the Messiah.

[Dr. Rich]

To my knowledge, which was extensive on this issue, and from the book called "James, the Brother of Jesus" (took me 2 years to read it) the cross was not used as a symbol by Jews or for Christians prior to Constitine. Yes, they did use the fish as a symbol.

The "Red Cross" we now have comes from "Rosie Crucian" the 'flags' and shields had on them as symbols for Christianity. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosy_Cross

[Kevin H]

Good for you Dr. Rich, I've read parts of but want to finish that book, it seems to be an excellent book. Now a book that large takes years to research and write, and the crosses on the graves in Israel were only found a couple of decades ago, and while they knew that there were those marginal notes in the dead sea scrolls it was not studied until around the same time of the discoveries of the use of the cross on graves in Israel, so this could well be discoveries after that book was researched.

[Dr. Rich]

When I got my book "James, the Brother of Jesus" by Robert Eisenman, I also got his book on the dead sea scrolls which is very extensive too. I never noticed anything in it that provided evidence that the cross was ever used as a symbol for the Jews. But then, I have not read or heard the evidence that you have provided. Thanks.