Re: Catholics and end of times.

[Jaycee]

So its been a while since I posted on this forum and I only just remembered it existed because I wanted to ask a question.

Right now I'm sort of SDA, sort of not...

my question is about the last days when apparently, the catholics are suppose to rise up and massacre those who do not go to church on sunday... the sabbath worshippers. (thats the crux of it I udnerstand).

This is some universal endtime belief within the SDA church and its safe to say that catholic thelogians or whatever would know all about SDA beliefs and prophecies.. etc. Yes?

The thing is, why on earth would the catcholics ever try and fulfil this prophecy? You see its on them to act on it and commit to doing these things.

The world will know that the SDA's are 100% true if the catholics ever commit to killing sabbath keepers, and surely you'd think everyone would be convinced by a fulfiulled prophecy?

I just don't believe the catholics are ever going to be a super power again. If anyone is going to take over the world and kill sabbath keepes, its going to be atheists. if you havvn't noticed, atheism is huge now. Id be more afraid of atheists then catholics.

Im extrememly tired, my writing is bad, and the spelling is worse. Sorry.

God bless.

[Gibs]

Coulsty,

You ask a very good question. I'm an out of the "box" SDA and on that prophecy I've always had issues. Satan is the player of Rev 13:11 to the end of the chapter and he will be the one whom will give that command.

Not many SDA's realize it but EGW said the same and for the benefit of those who believe in her, read,

I saw that the two-horned beast had a dragon's mouth, and that his power was in his head, and that the decree would go out of his mouth. Then I saw the Mother of Harlots; that the mother was not the daughters, but separate and distinct from them. She has had her day, and it is past, and her daughters, the Protestant sects, were the next to come on the stage and act out the same mind that the mother had when she persecuted the saints. I saw that as the mother has been declining in power, the daughters had been growing, and soon they will exercise the power once exercised by the mother. {SpM 1.4}

I saw the nominal church and nominal Adventists, like Judas, would betray us to the Catholics to obtain their influence to come against the truth. The saints then will be an obscure people, little known to the Catholics; but the churches and nominal Adventists who know of our faith and customs (for they hated us on account of the Sabbath, for they could not refute it) will betray the saints and report them to the Catholics as those who disregard the institutions of the people; that is, that they keep the Sabbath and disregard Sunday.

Now Adventism and all the churches are on the same path except SDA's for the moat part still advocate Sabbath but most are not stringent in keeping it.

You will get other views,

His Blessings,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Hi Coulsty,

I find your question very timely. The same question was discussed at length at a recent Sabbath afternoon bible study I attended. The point was made that it is not catholics who are doing the persecuting; it is the brisk-and-mortar institution of the Catholic Church (with the papacy at its head) who is leading out in persecution. It was also brought up that SDA's believe the Antichrist to be the papacy, the beast to be the papacy, and the woman on the beast to be the papacy. In Rev. 17, it talks about the ten horns of the beast devouring the harlot. How can the papacy devour itself?

That being said, I agree with you that the catholics are not the only persecuters here. You mention atheism as a likely antagonist. I would add to that radical Islam. That group is growing faster than any Christian group; and their calling in life is to rid the world on infidels (anyone not Muslim - especially Christians and Jews). We also discussed that the Sabbath may not be the only major issue. It will be a matter of who you worship - the one-world system or the King of the Universe. Scripture speaks of those having the mark of the beast not being able to buy or sell. Buying and selling takes place in the worldly market; not in church.

Prophesied persecution should not be a matter of fear for us. It is simply our General telling us what to expect in battle. The subject of our hearts should be expanding God's Kingdom here on earth. Persecution likely won't come until active "true" believers reach a critical mass that threatens world order; and Jesus won't return for us until we are such a threat to the world that, unless He cuts the persecution short, all life on earth would end. Satan is the ultimate persecutor; and Jesus is literally our Saviour at this point!

Do we realize that the ultimate goal of the gospel is total destruction of this world's systems through love and grace? If we all related to one another out of love and concern for our brothers and sisters rather than out of legalism, who would need laws? Who would need a central government? No wonder the world will consider us a threat!

I fight the urge to fear the end; and I try to focus on being God's ambassador wherever I can. He preserved millions of Hebrews in the desert for 40 years during the Exodus. He protected Daniel and the 3 worthies. He preserved a remnant church through the dark ages. Surely He can preserve me. He preserves me not because I deserve it; but because He LOVES me; because He already paid the ultimate price for my sins; because He wants me to rule with Him as a priest and king throughout eternity. If I hold on to these facts, my focus usually remains on His Kingdom; not on this world (although I confess that I do still sometimes succumb to letting the enemy "scare" me).

Keep your mind open. Don't let religion control your thoughts. Be led by the Spirit and the Word, not the church.

[Kevin H]

The image of Nebuccadnezzar's dream had 7 parts: Head of Gold (Babylon), breast and arms of silver (Medio-Persia), belly and thighs of brass (Greece), legs of iron (Rome), feet of iron and clay (The Holy Roman Empire with Papal Supremacy), toes of iron and clay (nations are independent) and an attempt for the toes to join together that ends up in complete chaos as they will not cleave one to another (the text does not say that there will not be a time where it might look like they are cleaving one to another, while there may be a short appearance of them cleaving together, it will ultimately not work out.)

The beast of Revelation 13 has 7 heads.

Seventh-day Adventists started in the mid 1800's, the world was just changing from the Holy Roman Empire (the 6th head) to the time of independent nations. In the early 1800's was the Postdam conferences, which was the last time there was a major Bible conference that was not colored by either Preterism (the belief that the Bible is human and either talking about what was going on back when it was written or a collection of fictional myths)or Futurism/Dispensationalism (that the events are going to happen to Jews in the future with the church being raptured away).

The Postdam conferences were cutting edge theology for that time, and was from the experience of having just gotten through the Holy Roman Empire with the Pope having a special authority and the Papacy being seen by Protestants as the Anti-Christ. While it was cutting edge for it's day, it is before the rediscovery of the ancient world. Seventh-day Adventists tend to just hold on to the findings of the Postdam conference; and as I said we have not had a chance to have another great conference because too many scholars have since changed to those other two schools of thought.

So there are 2 schools of thought, one which just holds to tradition and not wanting to build on the studies of the Postdam conferences, and others which are trying to study beyond.

Some of the suggestions for study beyond is that the 7th part is different from the first 5 that it was not just some conquering army, but that the world is united through economic cooperation. The last head having a power over everyone's ability to buy and sell and when the system does fail the first to mourn are the merchants of the earth (or the corporations).

The Papacy has had a tendency (and not 100% of the time, but the great majority of the time) to side with the wrong events in history, and many Christians see the Papacy as a great moral leader and thus trust the Pope's advice. Today we are seeing that the corporations are uniting into a world wide economic system where they are owned by about 200 families which are called the super rich (see the book from the 1960's "The Rich and the Super rich) when we hear that someone like Bill Gates is the Richest man on earth-- that means the richest of the rich. There is still the super rich. The super rich are on the counsel of foreign affairs, publishes foreign affairs journal which is very connected to the banking system has become international with the Federal Reserve.

Now while some people are looking for conspiracies in say the Masons or the Illuminati, I don't know about those groups or these secret conspiracies whether there is any truth to them or not. But with the Federal Reserve and the counsel of foreign affairs and the super rich there is enough going on out in the open where we don't have to focus on these supposed conspiracy theories. The Vatican has become deeply involved in this international banking and are playing a role.

Judging from the vantage of the 1800's the Postdam conferences and our Pioneers saw it easy to just see a return to the Holy Roman Empire with the Pope becoming some kind of king. But continuing to study the Bible, to take the Postdam Conferences and our pioneers as a foundation but adding the discoveries in archaeology, earning more about the culture of the Bible, the language and literary structure of the Bible can help us point to the texts that are focusing on how the text is pointing to the economic structure of the 7th head, and we again see the Papacy joining with the wrong side.

[Kevin H]

JoMo: good points. Another is that we have the woman riding the beast, so how is this again all the same image? These are points that we need to take into consideration, especially as we read the Bible closer and get farther away from the Holy Roman Empire.

We have to becareful not to fall into one of two ditches: 1 seeing the Papacy as everything, and 2. saying that the papacy is not involved. The Papacy was a part of the 5th head. Was not thrilled with America offering Religious liberty which was the starting of the 6th head (The Catholic view of Religious liberty is liberty to be a Catholic. In Europe Religious Liberty was that towns or countries could choose to be Catholic or Protestant but individuals were still forced to follow the state religion, and same with some of the colonies, except for Rode Island and Penn. who's relgious freedom for individuals became what the US addopted. But we still have people wanting to make the US like pre US Europe of a state religion, frequenty in modern years that religion is secularism who is trying to take the idea of religious freedom to enforce their views, which of course upsets Christians and other believers who will eventually cause a backlash)

[phkrause]

Coulsty, have you ever read the book "Tidings out of the Northeast" by Marc Alden Swearingen? If not, check it out. Its about Chapter 11 of Daniel, it covers your questions and expands on them. Its really interesting. As individual believers, I don't believe that RC want anyone forced to worship on Sunday. But as a system, you can see that in the news, they are aiming for a national Sunday law. I believe when this does happen, many RCC will leave there faith and join those that keep and love God's Commandments, and love Jesus as he says in Revelation.

[Bravus]

Atheists of the modern Western kind are horrified by the idea of killing or persecuting *anyone* on religious grounds. But they're going to persecute people for not keeping Sunday?

Muslims keep Friday, but they're going to persecute people for not keeping Sunday?

Ellen White bought into the pervasive anti-Catholic teachings in the US in the 19th century.

None of these groups are anywhere near as big a threat in terms of Sunday laws in America as evangelicals, but even they are massively unlikely to get Sunday laws enacted.

I believe I'm still on a bet around here to eat my hat when a national Sunday law passes in the US. I'm confident enough that I haven't started boiling my hat to make it soft yet...

But thse contentions I addressed in the first two paragraphs above are just craziness. Let's try to at least stay within shouting distance of reality.

[Dr. Rich]

Atheists of the modern Western kind are horrified by the idea of killing or persecuting *anyone* on religious grounds. But they're going to persecute people for not keeping Sunday?

Muslims keep Friday, but they're going to persecute people for not keeping Sunday?

Ellen White bought into the pervasive anti-Catholic teachings in the US in the 19th century.

None of these groups are anywhere near as big a threat in terms of Sunday laws in America as evangelicals, but even they are massively unlikely to get Sunday laws enacted.

I believe I'm still on a bet around here to eat my hat when a national Sunday law passes in the US. I'm confident enough that I haven't started boiling my hat to make it soft yet...

But thse contentions I addressed in the first two paragraphs above are just craziness. Let's try to at least stay within shouting distance of reality.

Great post B! Truth be known, the so called National Sunday Law is bogus as a three dollar bill. No where will you find support for this mistaken idea from the words of Jesus! Try it yourself and you will find that the Mark of the Beast only effects those who do not have the seal of God already and when the Mark is given, NO ONE will have a choice anymore, so why fret?

[JoeMo]

Great discussion here! I have studied many different interpretations of the end times as described in Daniel and Revelation since the 1970's from several denominations. From all those studues, I have learned several things:

1. Always keep my mind open (i.e., do not blindly accept any of the interpretations as absolute truth); or I might miss the real deal.

2. I reserve the right to be wrong or misinformed until someone shows me a "better way".

3. I reserve the right to change my mind at any time.

For example, I am beginning to have second thoughts on the "day for a year" principle applied to the 1260 days or 2300 days. When I read in Daniel 8:17 and 8:19 that Daniel's vision was for "the time of the end", I have an increasingly difficult time believing that that time began in Daniels day (around 4th century BC), Ezra's time (same as Daniel's), 397 AD (Constantine's time), 1798 (Pope captured), or 1844. I think this period is literal "real time" that is yet in the future. (Side note - how can Jesus have waited until 1844 to enter the Holy of Holies when Hebrews 9 clearly states that Jesus was already in the Holy of Holies? EGW told a crowd in the mid-1800's that some of them would see the Lord's Coming. Those people must be very old now.)

I also question that the seven kings spoken of in Rev 17: 9-11 represent seven modern nations. John says "they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while". Since Revelation was written from John's point of reference in the 1st century AD, I would propose that the "five [kings] who have already fallen" were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo Persia and Greece. The "one [who] is" was Rome; and the "other [who] has not yet come" has still not appeared.

As I said above, I reserve the right to be wrong; and to change my mind at any time. Having been a member of 3 different denominations prior to becoming an Adventist 35 years ago,I know the feeling of being sincere, yet being sincerely wrong. My mind is open to other opinions. What do you think?

[Kevin H]

I am beginning to have second thoughts on the "day for a year" principle applied to the 1260 days or 2300 days. When I read in Daniel 8:17 and 8:19 that Daniel's vision was for "the time of the end", I have an increasingly difficult time believing that that time began in Daniels day (around 4th century BC), Ezra's time (same as Daniel's), 397 AD (Constantine's time), 1798 (Pope captured), or 1844. I think this period is literal "real time" that is yet in the future. (Side note - how can Jesus have waited until 1844 to enter the Holy of Holies when Hebrews 9 clearly states that Jesus was already in the Holy of Holies? EGW told a crowd in the mid-1800's that some of them would see the Lord's Coming. Those people must be very old now.)

I will confess that I also have second thoughts onf the day-year principle for the 1260 days, because the context of the 1260 days in Daniel are given as the last 1260 days of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. Thus it was a smaller portion of what had already had the day-year application, and we have done a doubble application of the day-year principle. Also, while the Postdam Conference in the early 1800s was expecting the arrest of the Pope to be the deadly wound, they spoke too soon. That pope simply continued his job from France, then died and was repaced by Popes that became the most powerful popes in history.

Now for the 2300 evenings-mornings, it is a little different. First it is not given as 2300 days, as the 1260 days are. It is 2300 evenings-mornings, or cycles. The Hebrew Cycles vairy some depending if you are focused more on Leviticus or Deuteronomy. The simple summery would be in Leviticus 25. The Levitical cycle is days, half years (Fall New Yea - Passover- Fall New Year-- of course Yom Kippur is 10 days into the fall New Year), years, and Sabatical years leading to the Jublee. The Deuteronomy difference is that they have days, 6 month period, and years leading to the Sabatical years. Since Daniel is a Deuteronomist our options for the 2300 evenings-mornings are 2300 days, 2300 half years and 2300 full years. (If he was Levitical we would also have 2300 Sabatical years as a possibility)

Now, until the 20th century we did not have evidence that Belshazzar even existed. This was used in the 1800s to say that Daniel was not a product of Daniel's time. Well Archaeology discovered that yes there was a Belshazzar, who was the son of the king, but the king did not want his responsibilities so let Belshazzar rule in his place and Belshazzar was the second in the kingdom (and thus was able to offer someone to be 3rd in the kingdom.) Well, Daniel 8 was in the third year of Belshazzar. Now that we know when Belshazzar lived, we know that his third year included the day that was 2300 litteral days from the night that he gave his feast, the writing on the wall and Darius/ the Medio-Persians took over.

Deuteronomy 4 predicted the exile to be THE LAST DAYS. The Exile was to end by a second great exodus lead by the Messiah. But that was based on the condition that the Hebrews shared their faith with their neighbors. They were to tell about their unfaithfulness and God's faithfulness. The vision of Daniel 8 was "Hey, we only have about 2300 days left to fulfill this condition so that the Messiah can come and take us home.

This condition was not fufilled and the return home was a lackluster return. Now the Hebrews had 70 weeks of years from David to the end of the exile. Deuteronomy 4 gave two possible futures for the Hebrews, either they will be faithful and nations join them and eventually it would lead into the Messanic Kingdom, or they would be unfaithful, get curses and end up in exile, where they would go into the world with the commission to spread the gospel and if they were faithful in spreading the gospel the exile would be the last days. Since the exile was not the last days, God gave them another 70 weeks of years to return to the land and return to the land theology of Deuteronomy.

We find the 2300 evenings-mornings reapplied from being the last 2300 days of Babylon to being connected to the 70 weeks of years prophecy which started with the decree to rebuild and restor Jerusalem. Much of the rest of Daniel, and Ezekiel are predictions as to what WOULD have happned had Jesus been accepted and the Hebrews be faithful in the 70 weeks of years. If you add up the time periods in Ezekiel 39 you come up with 2310 days. Now if you subtract the 10 days from the New Year to Yom Kippur, you end up with another 2300 days. Here the 2300 days are applied to what would have happened the last 2300 days of the 70 years had Jesus been accepted.

Jesus was not accepted. We returned to exile theology. But we still have the 2300 cycle's prophecy hanging out there, a prophecy that can be applied to days, half years or full years. An interesting note with Hebrews 9 and Jesus going into the holy of holys. In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuatant, there are two different phrases for entereing the holy of holys. One was for when the Most Holy was entered to dedicate the temple, the second was when the high priest entered on Yom Kipper. The Hebrews 9 phrase is the one for entering for the dedication, not the phrase for entering on Yom Kippur.

Against all odds, Wiliam Miller had the correct date for the restoring of Jerusalem to start the 70 years from. And the 2300 cycles, with the year appication (which is one of the possibities that Deuteronomy gives it) pointed to a time where the world changed dramatically, including the re-discovery of the ancient world, a chance to study the Bible like never before, the dawn of the age of exegesus. A time where for the beings on the other planets and the angels have a chance to review how the death of Jesus has impacted his people (which helps them to understand their own salvation and get a clearer picture of how the death of Jesus impacts them) and we get to study the Bible like never before, more knowlege of the Bible gives us better knowlege of the God of the Bible. As we get to know more about God, the better chance there is of falling deeper in love with God and haveing a deeper relationship with him. Jesus waited until the mid 1800s because that was when humanity was ready for this expirence and when there was adiquite amount of history for the unfallen to have enough evidence to review. Now this is not to say that there will not be another application of the 2300 cycles to the last 2300 days of earth's history or the last 2300 days from the events at the end of the thousand years. But it is a fair application since Daniel gave us 2300 cycles, one option of the cycles is the years, and that they years application points us to a very intersting time in history.

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

I also question that the seven kings spoken of in Rev 17: 9-11 represent seven modern nations. John says "they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while". Since Revelation was written from John's point of reference in the 1st century AD, I would propose that the "five [kings] who have already fallen" were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo Persia and Greece. The "one [who] is" was Rome; and the "other [who] has not yet come" has still not appeared.

The 7 kings are Babylon, Medio Persia, Greece, Rome, the Holy Roman empire (including Papal Supremicy). Revelation 17: 9-11 is talking about a time where these 5 had fallen and the confusing words "the beast that was and is not" is the 6th head, the deadly wound. The beast exists, but the head is not as the head is dead. And the end is also the 8th yet part of the 7 to show the diversity of the deadly wound and the strangeness of the last head that it is not just some Nebucchadnezzar, Darius, or Alexander the Great marching with their armies, but people choosing independence, then people choosing to volunterly surrender their independence to join in ecconomic cooperation to form the 7th head.

I hope this helps. Keep studying.

[Jaycee]

Sorry took a while to get back here.

Thanks for the responses everyone, it has provoked some thought.

[BobRyan]

Atheists of the modern Western kind are horrified by the idea of killing or persecuting *anyone* on religious grounds. But they're going to persecute people for not keeping Sunday?

Muslims keep Friday, but they're going to persecute people for not keeping Sunday?

Ellen White bought into the pervasive anti-Catholic teachings in the US in the 19th century.

None of these groups are anywhere near as big a threat in terms of Sunday laws in America as evangelicals, but even they are massively unlikely to get Sunday laws enacted.

I believe I'm still on a bet around here to eat my hat when a national Sunday law passes in the US. I'm confident enough that I haven't started boiling my hat to make it soft yet...

1. Ellen White published her view that Catholics and Protestants would bury the hatchet and become best friends at a time when no Protestant in America thought such a thing even remotely possible. It was one of the major complaints about SDA eschatology at the time.

(How soon we forget).

2. The opening post - and Bravus' comment above go hand in hand when it comes to the much predicted horrifically extreme nature of the NSL within Adventist eschatology.

Those posts point out the obvious fact that society is absolutely not "migrating" to a "violently wipe out Sabbath keeping in our life time" agenda.

I have posted the solution several times.

3. The solution starts with noticing a detail in the sequence we find in Revelation 13. According to the text Radical game-changing "signs and wonders" precede the image to the beast AND the mark of the beast.

4. Just as 9/11 brought the U.S. a game changing event an suddenly "Homeland security" popped into existence as well as war in Iraq, Afghanistan and surgical strikes around the world, and of course intrusive full body revealing scans at airports (along with the abuse of those scans).

So also a "game changing event" such as is predicted in both the writings of Ellen White and in Rev 13 - is the precursor to such a historic NSL.

5. The SDA view is that in Catholic countries the Catholic church will dominate - and in protestant countries the protestants will dominate this push for NSL. It comes from the people reacting to the signs and wonders - pressing their governments to pass those laws.

Government leaders that are of the flavor "any moral compromise to get your vote" are the ones most likely to "go along" with popular opinion. Hint: Watch out for the ones who say things like "I personally find that morally repugnant but I voted for it anyway because it was more popular than a conservative position and I could get more votes that way".

in Christ,

Bob

[olger]

Bon appetit, mon ami.

`G

[BobRyan]

The biggest "hint" that Ellen White was getting messages from God on the subject of Catholics vs Protestant predictions for the future - is the extent to which it seemed very unlikely in the 1800's that Catholics and Protestants would ever start to work hand-in-glove as she predicted.

The same is true today of the predicted NSL. The biggest hint that this NSL prediction is come directly from God - will be seen when the event so unlikely today - occurs "tomorrow". That will be the strongest argument in favor of the divine source for those predictions.

I am therefore happy to have the "unlikely nature" of the event as it stands today - be broadcast far and wide.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gibs]

Coulsty,

It will be the last act in the "drama". It is clear the command does come from Satan as it's his ajenda in the first place to get men on the track of keeping another day that isn't hallowed and sanctified by God and thus is His Holy Day. Another reason it is an Holy Day is His Special Presence in it to be with His obedient Own.

A little comment from EGW on this again remembering the decree comes out of the mouth of the dragon, Satan.

"Last Act of the Drama

"Never did this message apply with greater force than it applies today. More and more the world is setting at naught the claims of God. Men have become bold in transgression. The wickedness of the inhabitants of the world has almost filled up the measure of their iniquity. This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it. The substitution of the laws of men for the law of God, the exaltation, by merely human authority, of Sunday in place of the Bible Sabbath, is the last act in the drama. When this substitution becomes universal, God will reveal Himself. He will arise in His majesty to shake terribly the earth. He will come out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the world for their iniquity, and the earth shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain."--Testimonies, vol. 7, p. 141.

The Sabbath will be ridiculed and made light of by men but Satan has to be the enforcer, men may make some attempts but will not be universal, he only is allowed to make an appearance in a body at the very end.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

does God ever change His mind?

[BobRyan]

Is God's Word ever a light and guide to the future but then at the last minute ... "not"??

Is God "unreliable"?

In the OT we have God telling us that his promises and his condemnation are conditional. If Ninevah repents then even though He says they will die in 40 days - He will spare them. If they do not repent - then they all die in 40 days.

If the entire CC repented - if the entire US repented.. if all of Protestantism repented - perhaps these scenarios would not turn out as God has already predicted them, since they would be covered by that "conditional" aspect.

Turns out - that is not where the world is going.

in Christ,

Bob

[Kountzer]

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.ECCl 1:9

Convincing evidence that there will soon be persecution concerning sabbath worship is the fact that it has happened before. In history Rome did not just pass certains laws and edicts and the rest of the world followed suit. People died over this issue. One of the main issues that fueled persecution during the middle ages was worshiping on the sabbath instead of Rome's sunday. Sabbath worshipers either capitulated to sunday laws or they were eradicated.

Rome has not changed. It will happen again.

[doug yowell]

If the entire CC repented - if the entire US repented.. if all of Protestantism repented - perhaps these scenarios would not turn out as God has already predicted them, since they would be covered by that "conditional" aspect.

Turns out - that is not where the world is going.

in Christ,

Bob

I think that a modern (non-SDA) prophet had it right when he said:"It ain't over till it's over."

[Woody]

Quote:

Convincing evidence that there will soon be persecution concerning sabbath worship

What I see in current events - is that the government is bending over backwards to help accommodate for SDAs and Sabbath worship. Please see the thread regarding the Nevada Caucuses.

[Kountzer]

That's window dressing.

[His4everFriend]

So its been a while since I posted on this forum and I only just remembered it existed because I wanted to ask a question.

Right now I'm sort of SDA, sort of not...

my question is about the last days when apparently, the catholics are suppose to rise up and massacre those who do not go to church on sunday... the sabbath worshippers. (thats the crux of it I udnerstand).

This is some universal endtime belief within the SDA church and its safe to say that catholic thelogians or whatever would know all about SDA beliefs and prophecies.. etc. Yes?

The thing is, why on earth would the catcholics ever try and fulfil this prophecy? You see its on them to act on it and commit to doing these things.

The world will know that the SDA's are 100% true if the catholics ever commit to killing sabbath keepers, and surely you'd think everyone would be convinced by a fulfiulled prophecy?

I just don't believe the catholics are ever going to be a super power again. If anyone is going to take over the world and kill sabbath keepes, its going to be atheists. if you havvn't noticed, atheism is huge now. Id be more afraid of atheists then catholics.

Im extrememly tired, my writing is bad, and the spelling is worse. Sorry.

God bless.

DEAR Coulsty:

First of all it's nice to meet you. I like your honesty presented here. We are told by Jesus Himself that at the end of time there would be deception in such a way that if possible even the elect would be deceived.

The good news is that Jesus also said that If we are willing to do His will then we shall know the doctrine whether it is from God or not. Not one of those who truly love God and who are truly surrendered will be lost! What wonderful news. And so while we are in a war between good and evil Jesus has promised that not one who are is will be lost.

As far as the topic at hand. God wrote the scriptures in such a way that those who are truly seeking to do "HIS" will can discern the scriptures while others who read the very same words cannot see the same truths that are presented. Jesus talked about that many times that those who have eyes to see cannot see and those who have ears to hear cannot hear. ANd sadly He was speaking of those who were called by His own name! What make the difference between those who heard and those who didn't? And why is it that the multitudes did not understand the scriptures that Jesus Himself had inspired? Even Peter did not do well on this topic. My point is that how do avoid the pitfalls that the multitudes fell victim? Jesus said that narrow is the gate that leads to life and few there be who find it.

This topic is not hard to understand and I have heard many evangelists present it in such a way that everyone in the audience knew beyond a shadow of a doubt who the beast of Rev. 13 was. The evangelist did not have to even mention the name... everyone was convicted in their own hearts.

I plead with those who are following this thread to search their hearts and see if there is any rebellion left in their hearts that needs to be surrendered and forgiven. After all what would be the point of knowing who the beast of Rev. 13 is, or isn't, when in reality we do not know who Jesus is ? The only way that God's elect will not be deceived is that they overcome satan by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto death.

Dear Coulsty Jesus loves you and died for you so that He can spend all of eternity with you. While He has sent a warning message to His people pertaining to end time events... the message of scriptures still has it's foundation on John 3:16 and without that foundation securely in place is there any way that we can safely build a house? Jesus warned us about the serious NEED of building upon the solid "Rock"...

I encourage you to make that foundation secure as we look further into the future as recorded by "Him".

His4everFriend