Fire prophecies concerning Adventist structures

[Guest]

It is reported by the fireman fighting the fires a 100 years ago on various Adventist structures that all effort to suppress the flames only increased the destruction. It soon became knowledge back then, yes, sent for the firemen to come at once to come and watch that the fire didn't spread to near by structures. If the counsel of the English speaking prophet was heeded could this loss & embarsement been avoided? Anyone remember what God said about this?

"God said: "My word has been despised; and I will turn and overturn." {8T 97.3}

"To the Brethren in Battle Creek--

Today I received a letter from Elder Daniells regarding the destruction of the Review office by fire. I feel very sad as I consider the great loss to the cause. I know that this must be a very trying time for the brethren in charge of the work and for the employees of the office. I am afflicted with all who are afflicted. But I was not surprised by the sad news, for in the visions of the night I have seen an angel standing with a sword as of fire stretched over Battle Creek. Once, in the daytime, while my pen was in my hand, I lost consciousness, and it seemed as if this sword of flame were turning first in one direction and then in another. Disaster seemed to follow disaster because God was dishonored by the devising of men to exalt and glorify themselves. {8T 97.1}

This morning I was drawn out in earnest prayer that the Lord would lead all who are connected with the Review and Herald office to make diligent search, that they may see wherein they have disregarded the many messages God has given. {8T 97.2}

Sometime ago the brethren at the Review office asked my counsel about the erection of another building. I then said that if those who were in favor of adding another building to the Review and Herald office had the future mapped out before them, if they could see what would be in Battle Creek, they would have no question about putting up another building there. God said: "My word has been despised; and I will turn and overturn." {8T 97.3}

[Guest]

The following is a list of fires reported in the Review during the 60s

Cafeteria, So. New England Conf., Mass.; date of

fire not given: loss $100,000: R & H, Nov. 8, 1962

Seattle, Central Church, Wash.; burned Feb. 23, 1963

with a loss of $85,000; R & H, May 23, 1963

Chapel, Lynwood Academy, Calif. burned June 23, 1963

loss $150,000 - R & H, July 11, 1963

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Stanborough Press, England, burned Jan. 3, 1964

loss $280,000; R & H, Jan. 16, 1964

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Girl"s Dormitory, Bristol Bay Mission School, Alaska

burned Feb. 2, 1964 R & H, Feb. 20, 1964

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Risley Hall, Loma Linda University, Calif.; burned

Feb. 12, 1964 tentative loss estimate $1,050,000

Reported R & H, February 27, 1964

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Western Welfare Depot, Watsonville, Calif., burned

March 14, 1964; reported R & H, April 2, 1964

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Luminar III, Brazil, date of fire not given; R & H,

June 25, 1964 [A missionary boat]

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Admin. Building, Forest Lake Academy, Florida;

burned July 3, 1964 loss in excess of $100,000

reported R & H, July 16, 1964

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Printshop and Maintenance Building, Alantic Union

College, Mass.; burned July 30, 1965 loss near

$100,000 - reported R & H, August 12, 1965

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La Crescenta Church, Calif. burned Jan. 16, 1966

loss in excess on $100,000 - R & H, Feb. 3, 1966

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It appears as though 1964 was a bad year for structure fires in Adventism, could all this loss been avoided if the SOP heavenly counsel been heeded?

I see a pattern here, in the late 50s the Review was BOLD in telling us all what platform those at the helm were standing on. It was words like this "Our medical work is NEVER to be associated with the taking of herbs & natural remedies, our work is strickly drug medication." Now 50 years later, has this boldness subsided or grow bolded?

[wicklunds]

Ed, does this mean that the medical people said they didnt want their work associated with the taking of natural remedies? Or the words of the prophet that ""? I am a little confused. It seems like that is what we are mainly doing now is using natural remedies. Is this wrong?

[Guest]

Yes those at the heart of the work were allowing a select few "medical men" to loosen the timbers supporting TRUE medical missionary work of using natural remedies, herbs & such. Orders were given to move away from something that heaven could approve to drug medications. That's where the real money is, there is no money in teaching people how to eat/drink/dress. The element in the church [Laodecia] that ONLY understand dollars & cents just loves the tithe receipts from those demanding their high salries, the one's that have convinced thousands that this is "our medical work". Well it is not mine! Adventist have a higher calling than that of the Baptist & Catholic hospitals, if there are those out there that don't know that, then "sleep on now and take your rest".[Laodecia]

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"During the past night, I have been shown more distinctly than ever before that these sentiments have been looked upon by some as the grand truths that are to be brought in and made prominent at the present time. I was shown a platform, braced by solid timbers, the truths of the word of God. Some one high in responsibility in the medical work was directing this man and that man to loosen the timbers supporting this platform. Then I heard a voice saying, "Where are the watchmen that ought to be standing on the walls of Zion? Are they asleep? How can they be silent? This foundation was built by the Master Worker, and will stand the storm and tempest. Will they permit this man to present doctrines that deny the past experience of the people of God? The time has come to take decided action" {SpTB07 38.1}

I was instructed to call upon our physicians and ministers to take a firm stand for the truth. We are not to allow atheistic, spiritualistic sentiments to be brought before our youth. God has led us in the past, giving us truth, eternal truth. By this truth we are to stand. Some of the leaders in the medical work have been deceived, and if they continue to hold fanciful, spiritualistic ideas, they will make many believe that the platform upon which we have been standing for the past fifty years has been torn away. These men need now to see with anointed eyes, with clear spiritual vision, that in spite of all men can do, "the foundation of God standeth sure," and "the Lord knoweth them that are His." {SpTB07 38.2}

[Bravus]

Erm, 'spiritualistic ideas' = drug therapies?

[Guest]

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Erm, 'spiritualistic ideas' = drug therapies?

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Amen!

I was visting a church near Lake Tahoe one Sabbath and the guest speaker was a Greek teacher from PUC, so after his sermon, I asked him to give me his understanding of the word "sorceries" in Revelation 9:21 This is the verse that a class of people "REFUSE" to repent of & a few items including "murders" & "fornication". He made a cup with one hand and with his index finger he begin ti stir in this "cup". saying concoctions, drug medication! Not that I need his testemony for my belief system, because the bible & Bible Concordance say the same thing.

[Bravus]

pharmakaion (wish I had greek characters, and my spelling might not be orthodox)

[Ron Lambert]

The spiritualistic ideas involved Kellogg's divinity-inside-us teachings that Ellen G. White denounced as pantheism.

Despite Ellen G. White's warnings, many doctors and other medical people sided with Kellog. They made a play to take over the denomination, and came close to replacing the General Conference president with a man sympathetic to their side of the controversy. (This shows that sometimes the Lord does want His faithful people to be involved in political struggles in the church, and not just sit on the sidelines unwilling to join the battle.) Kellogg's faction also came within one vote of getting the Review and Herald Press to publish Kellogg's book as an official denominational publication, using the same color and binding as the Spirit of Prophecy books. After that disaster was narrowly averted, the managers of the Review and Herald Press agreed to accept Kellogg's book as a commercial printing job. While the plates for Kellogg's book were on the presses ready to be printed, the Review and Herald Press caught fire and burned to the ground.

This, I believe, is one of the clearest examples of God chastening the SDA people by fire. He not only rebukes the Laodiceans, He also chastens them.

Note this excerpt from the appendix notes for the book, Testimonies to Ministers:

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"I FEEL A TERROR OF SOUL AS I SEE TO WHAT A PASS OUR PUBLISHING HOUSE HAS COME."--TESTIMONIES, VOL. 8, P. 91. {TM 531.4}

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ON THE SAME PAGE SHE STATES: "I HAVE BEEN ALMOST AFRAID TO OPEN THE REVIEW, FEARING TO SEE THAT GOD HAS CLEANSED THE PUBLISHING HOUSE BY FIRE." {TM 531.5}

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THIRTEEN MONTHS LATER, DECEMBER 30, 1902, THE PUBLISHING HOUSE WAS DESTROYED BY FIRE. THE CAUSE WAS NEVER DETERMINED, BUT EYEWITNESSES REPORT THAT THE WHOLE BUILDING SEEMED TO BURST INTO FLAMES ALMOST SIMULTANEOUSLY. WHEN INFORMED OF THIS DISASTER, ELLEN WHITE WROTE: "I WAS NOT SURPRISED BY THE SAD NEWS, FOR IN THE VISIONS OF THE NIGHT I HAVE SEEN AN ANGEL STANDING WITH A SWORD AS OF FIRE STRETCHED OVER BATTLE CREEK."--TESTIMONIES, VOL. 8, P. 97. {TM 531.6}

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[Amelia]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

He made a cup with one hand and with his index finger he begin ti stir in this "cup". saying concoctions, drug medication! Not that I need his testemony for my belief system, because the bible & Bible Concordance say the same thing.

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But Ed, even the natural remedies are "concocted". What remedies of any type today are not?

[bevin]

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It is reported by the fireman fighting the fires a 100 years ago on various Adventist structures that all effort to suppress the flames only increased the destruction. It soon became knowledge back then, yes, sent for the firemen to come at once to come and watch that the fire didn't spread to near by structures.

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I challenge you to produce any solid evidence that fires in the SDA structures were any different to any other fire in a similar building of the era fought using similar techniques.

/Bevin

[Guest]

Bevin I like a challenge like this, but if the soild proof is provided, would it be accepted? I have found it almost never does, a person waits 5 years then states, yes that is right, I have always believed that way. So bare with me, I'll do what I can.

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Ron are you aware of what was pen-knifed OUT of 8T 91 from where your execlent quote came from? Take a look at the difference, yes things are shifted around by a committee of men that think they are above the law. But nothing that comes from God is to be lost.

Just do a search with a few of the words you used and see what is missing. You will find words like this "the mageners are LOADING the guns of the enemy..." I say this to not to prevent anyone from reading Ellen White books, ALL OF THEM! But the ones in print before her husbands death [1881] are the most trust worthy.

[Guest]

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It is reported by the fireman fighting the fires a 100 years ago on various Adventist structures that all effort to suppress the flames only increased the destruction. It soon became knowledge back then, yes, sent for the firemen to come at once to come and watch that the fire didn't spread to near by structures.

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I challenge you to produce any solid evidence that fires in the SDA structures were any different to any other fire in a similar building of the era fought using similar techniques.

/Bevin

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Some people consider this solid proof.

"Although there were a number of employees at work throughout the building, none had seen the fire start; but it was generally agreed that it had begun in the basement in the original engine room, under the dynamo room. The first published report of the fire said: {5BIO 224.3}

The very day on which it occurred the chief of the city fire

department, in company with the office electrician, made a tour

of inspection throughout the building, examining the wiring for

the lights and other possible sources of danger, and pronounced

everything in satisfactory condition.--RH, Jan. 6, 1903. {5BIO 224.4}

This was done in consideration of the renewal of the insurance on January 1. {5BIO 224.5}

Fire Chief Weeks, who had directed the fighting of a number of big fires in Battle Creek, was later to declare that he had fought every one of the Adventist fires and his score was zero."'There is something strange,"' he said, "'about your SDA fires, with the water poured on acting more like gasoline."'--P. B. Fairchild to Arthur L. White, Dec. 4, 1965. {5BIO 224.6}

[Ron Lambert]

Bevin, that long ago, all we have to go by is the testimony of eyewitnesses. That may not be persuasive scientifically, but it does constitute evidence with some weight in terms of courts and legal requirements for evidence. And there is the one objective circumstantial evidence that there were a lot of denominational fires around the beginning of the 20th century.

And remember too, that was only 12 years after the insubordination of many churches leaders against the Lord in 1888, when they resisted the message of Righteousness by Faith brought by A.T. Jones and E.J. Waggoner, and endorsed emphatically by Ellen G. White. It is ironic that many of the people who bought into Kellogg's divinity-in-our-flesh heresy actually thought it was the 1888 message. Resisting the light that came in 1888 left the rejectors in a state of growing confusion. This confusion also spread to others. Incredibly, even A.T. Jones was said to be sympathetic to Kellogg.

[Guest]

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He made a cup with one hand and with his index finger he begin ti stir in this "cup". saying concoctions, drug medication! Not that I need his testemony for my belief system, because the bible & Bible Concordance say the same thing.

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But Ed, even the natural remedies are "concocted". What remedies of any type today are not?

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Well Amelia in your search for an excuse to justify drug medication use by Adventist Doctors, are you telling me then that when Jesus used as a poultice, figs & used spit & mud to apply to a sufferer that is in the same class as a concoction made by sorcerers today where their culture comes from tying a cow to one spot for days after scraping her belly & then catching the pus in a bucket beneath? If this is your best defense, then it is a lame one! I think in Job day and him being a perfect man in the sight of God, he reminded our generation about “physicians of no value”. He went on to say that this class of people = “forgers of lies”. [Job 13:4] I’ve see some of that, and will expect to see more of it tomorrow. There is an abundance of Asa in the world today much to the delight of the sorcerers & sorceresses.

“And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the Lord, but to the physicians.” 2 Chronicles 16:12

These words found in an Egyptian grave in 4BC. “A person lives on one fourth of what they earn, their physician lives on the three fourth.”

Yes the prophet was not only right in predicting total destruction of structure fires among people professing to be “the remnant”, but every other type of destruction is on schedule to those that choose to step off the platform of truth and live their lives like the world.

[Amelia]

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Well Amelia in your search for an excuse to justify drug medication use by Adventist Doctors, are you telling me then that when Jesus used as a poultice, figs & used spit & mud to apply to a sufferer that is in the same class as a concoction made by sorcerers today where their culture comes from tying a cow to one spot for days after scraping her belly & then catching the pus in a bucket beneath? If this is your best defense, then it is a lame one!

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Now,now Ed. You assume too much. I wasnt looking for excuses or justifications. I was referring to the word concoction. Here is the what the dictionary says: Concoction: to prepare by combining raw materials. So I was correct and not "lame". Keep it up Ed. I have a corner with your name on it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mittelgr124.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Amelia this "corner" you tell about, does that apply to those that know how to hover? In your search for this "corner" don't negelect to read Ps 64 in your down time.

[Guest]

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It is reported by the fireman fighting the fires a 100 years ago on various Adventist structures that all effort to suppress the flames only increased the destruction. It soon became knowledge back then, yes, sent for the firemen to come at once to come and watch that the fire didn't spread to near by structures.

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I challenge you to produce any solid evidence that fires in the SDA structures were any different to any other fire in a similar building of the era fought using similar techniques.

/Bevin

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Bevin you made a fast departure after I provided you with your request, is this a isolated incident or is it a pattern one can expect as though it on the daily schedule?

[bevin]

Sorry Ed, I had just lost this thread in my busy weekend (I am doing a paramedic class in my non-working time).

Unfortunately Arthur L. White is not a reliable source. The White family has frequently greatly exagerated the mystique around stories of their (grand-)mother.

Perhaps Arthur reported it correctly, but even then the info is suspect and not based on any evidence.

The fire was in 1900. That makes the recollection 64 years old and lacking any evidence other than one young (at the time) man's impression.

What did the insurance company say?

/Bevin

[Ron Lambert]

Bevin, isn't it a bid disingenuous of you to demand testimony from people who are likely materialists and secularists to prove something supernatural has occurred? You have been given the quote from the fire chief, and from other eyewitnesses. What is your purpose questioning the veracity of Arthur S. White, who reports these things? And how do you account for the fact that there were so many denominational fires around the beginning of the twentieth century?

[Guest]

Bevin said. "What did the insurance company say?"

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It seems that some can only see as an authortive sourse AFTER the doctors gives his/her report before the insurance can decide and then give their report, then a judge jumps through his man made hoops to enter the official verdic, and all the while, truth is fallen in the street.

If there is enought time in this old world the lawyers are now gearing up to come after the discrepencies in the medical profession that will make the lawsuit settlement against the tobacco people look like peanuts.

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And with higher education cranking out graduate students hitch-hiking as mental health therpist to examine the 80 million public school children where about 20% will be declared "OFFICIALLY" in need drug medication. So the drug companies get to rub their knuckles a few more months. They will never be satisified until every man/women/child/dog/cat has been "offical" placed on their witchcraft practices, and all the while more truth is fallen in the streets.

[bevin]

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You have been given the quote from the fire chief, and from other eyewitnesses.

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No I haven't.

I have been given a quote from Arthur L White. I need more information to trust ALW's statements.

If Fire Chief Weeks was talking to White in 1965, about a fire that happened in 1900, then either (a) Weeks was only about 20 years old at the time of the fire - very young to be an experienced Fire Chief, and 85 talking to ALW, or ( he was more like 35 years old at the time and 100 talking to ALW.

We are talking about wooden buildings full of printing supplies being fiddled with by men with horse-drawn wagons and hand-powered pumps. If they made the mistake of pouring water into a liquid-fueled fire, they could easily have spread it!

/Bevin

[Ron Lambert]

Bevin, most ink is water-based. Paper of course burns, but you referred to "liquid-fueled fire." I do not know of any flammable liquids that would be present in any large amount in a 1902 printing plant. Printing was done with lead type. I believe this was before offset lithography became common, with its use of photographic negatives and aluminum plates with their light-sensitive emulsions, and solvents used to wash away the exposed emulsions. (I've worked in an offset lithography shop.) Even in a modern printshop, the only thing you would really worry about as a potential fire hazard is the paper.

If you think that Arthur S. White did not make honest or at least accurate use of historical sources, then I suggest the burden is on you to dig up those historical sources and show that his quotes and summaries of others' testimony are not accurate.

[bevin]

Some fun fire photos here...

http://www2.willard.lib.mi.us/bcphotos/fires/

in particular, it wasn't just SDA buildings burning to the ground in Battle Creek...

Info about 1900's fire fighting...

http://www.chipublib.org/004chicago/disasters/iroquois_fire.html

http://www.pcpages.com/fireman02169/history_and_traditionearly1900.htm

http://www.auroraregionalfiremuseum.org/history/timeline.htm

http://www.siouxfalls.org/fire/subpage.asp?ID=1179

http://www.pantagraph.com/cityguide/sesqui/fire2.html

Info about possible flammable liquids...

Ron writes:

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I do not know of any flammable liquids that would be present in any large amount in a 1902 printing plant.

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http://teched.vt.edu/gcc/HTML/VirtualTextbook/PDFs/Ink101.pdf

Gutenberg had to invent an oil-based ink.

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added to oil-based inks to further protect the ink

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were water- or alcohol-based and dried very fast

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[Today] 80% are petrochemicals

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and this doesn't count fuels, solvents, glues, etc.

/Bevin

[james423]

I would agree with Bevin. Older presses with that lead type used oil-based inks. It's only with offset presses that water-based inks were used. Not only that, but the way the ink was spread on the presses to print whatever was being printed added to the problem. A fair amount would get on the floor along with the solvents needed to clean the old presses. I was reminded of this when I visited Historic Rugby, a historical village near us in Tennessee.

Also the gears on many of these machines were not always enclosed. This meant that grease and oil needed to lubricate the gears got on the floors also.

Personally however, I question discounting everything that Arthur White says. I believe Mrs. White did say that the R&H burned up as a reproof to Dr. Kellogg.

The speed and timing of the fires (they mostly occured during the night or evening) and the low loss of life indicate to me that the Lord allowed the fires but did not permit people to be lost. You can read Ellen White comments where she applies the lessons learned from those fires. That is not Arthur White speaking but Ellen White.

Even with modern fire apparatus an industrial fire can spread rapidly. I well remember a sportswear trim factory where a fan shutting down at midnight put out a spark. Within half an hour, firefighters were called in, and within an hour the whole county department was headed towards the scene. We fought that fire the rest of the night. I stepped off the engine at 10:00 the next morning. The factory was a total loss. Saved - three desks.

[cardw]

Well if we are to look at what spiritualistic ideas are today, I would say those organizations that you would label as new age promote natural healing much more aggressively than anyone. So I would not say that "spiritualistic" = drug use.

In terms of money, there are far more personal funds spent on alternative care than on traditional care in this country. So providing good alternative care does not mean one has to be poor.

This "prophecy" of EGW comes after the fact and seems rather mean spirited. And the idea that God would deal with people by burning down buildings makes God seem more like a pyromaniac than a loving spiritual influence.

This idea that fires mean anything is so speculative, paticularly in light of the recent fire at Southern Adventist University in which one student died.

Ellen White reveals the true lack of depth in her own spirituality when she makes up stuff like this. This is a child's god, a god who is so insecure that he has to go around burning buildings to make a point. A god who has such poor communication skills that he has to act out.

This is one of the main reasons that Ellen White's writings are so repulsive to me. She can hardly rise above her demented view of God. It's a god created in her own image. A god who is sending visions about gossip and nagging. A god who is so insecure in his control, that he has to resort to threats and manipulation. A god she uses to deflect her own insecurities onto others.

Richard