Christians Debate eternal hell

[BobRyan]

See this wikipedia article -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism#Seventh-day_Adventist_Church

Note this statement in the opening paragraphs -

Quote:

the Church of England's Doctrine Commission reported in 1995 that "[h]ell is not eternal torment", but "non-being". Some Protestant and Anglican writers have also proposed annihilationist doctrines.

Here is another insightful article -

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/october23/1.30.html

That link exposes the wide ranging nature of the debate on hell that flared up with John Stott's 1988 published opinion in favor of non-eternal torment.

Quote:

Heavyweight traditionalists did not stay out of the fray. ... J. I. Packer, a figure as revered by evangelicals as Stott, expressed his displeasure in Evangelical Affirmations (Academie, 1990) that Stott had advocated annihilationism.

Plainly evangelical Anglicans were lining up on opposite sides of this issue: Stott, Hughes, Wenham and Michael Green on the side of conditionalism; Packer, Harmon, Gerald Bray, and Alec Motyer on the side of traditionalism.

Clearly this is not an SDA-only or even non-Evangelical debate.

in Christ,

Bob

[olger]

Good.

[Gibs]

It is God, Yahweh Himself that is the consuming fire of hell. All thrown in it are consumed, some it will take longer it looks like but is really no great length of time, most it will be instantly almost. When death and hell are cast into it, it is completey finished, that is the end of hell and the fire of hell has done it's work.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

De 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Satan even becomes ashes, consumed.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Na 1:10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gail]

I'm just reading Fudge's book now, The Fire That Consumes, and it is EXCELLENT! Some of the names in the Wiki article are quoted and this book is so thorough and well-written that I know why it created such a stir within the Evangelical world when it came out!

We are not alone in the conditionalist view of hellfire. I keep saying to myself that we might well see many more surprises before Jesus comes regarding doctrinal issues!

[Gail]

I would consider AND recommend giving a copy to your non-Adventist friends if you differ on the subject of eternal punishment.

The film about Ed Fudge should also be coming out soon!

[Naomi]

I'll check and see if it is available on Kindel. ty

[Lysimachus]

I have the older edition of The Fire That Consumes. I need to get around to upgrading it, AND reading it thoroughly. I've only read fragments of it here and there.

It's really too bad that LeRoy Froom's "Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers" is no longer in print.

Did you know Gail that LeRoy Froom's 2-volume set, Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, is a total of about 2,476 pages?

Interestingly, I heard that Fudge cites Froom now and then.

[tall73]

For the purposes of loaning to non-SDA's though I think Fudge gets you more mileage. It is pretty thorough on the biblical text, gives an overview without overdoing it on the church history angle, and is written by a non-Adventist so it doesn't raise red flags.

I have loaned it to non-Adventist pastors to read through.

[Lysimachus]

For the purposes of loaning to non-SDA's though I think Fudge gets you more mileage. It is pretty thorough on the biblical text, gives an overview without overdoing it on the church history angle, and is written by a non-Adventist so it doesn't raise red flags.

I have loaned it to non-Adventist pastors to read through.

True. Although I would expect this to be so, mainly because Froom's work predates Fudge's, and Froom's work helped to really catapult Fudge into new territory for which Froom was never able to enter. He had already done enough work in other areas. Fudge really brings it all together though, and zeros in straight to the point.

[BobRyan]

For the purposes of loaning to non-SDA's though I think Fudge gets you more mileage. It is pretty thorough on the biblical text, gives an overview without overdoing it on the church history angle, and is written by a non-Adventist so it doesn't raise red flags.

I have loaned it to non-Adventist pastors to read through.

As an Ex-SDA pastor do you find that there is a significant number of non-SDA pastors willing to consider that hell may not torment the wicked forever? Are they even aware of the level of support for a non-eternal hell within evangelical scholarship or the 1995 decision in the UK?

in Christ,

Bob

[Stan]

There is a movie in the works about this.

[tall73]

Significant? Not sure. I haven't done a poll. I just give it to ones I think would be interested.

Our current pastor knows we are annihilationist as well and doesn't seem to get worked up about it, and allows me to teach, preach, etc.

[Gibs]

Even common "horse" sense tells us that for a mere few years of life in sin, which to Him is but a breath, He would not burn and torture for eternity.

Do you or could you imagine Him who is righteous true and just having pleasure in torturing forever for a breath of time in disobedience? No of course not!

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

The second death, is the everlasting death, die, dead to live no more, not living and scorching in flame, that would be living in screaming torture and that isn't what is indicated.

Na 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Yes He will bring it to an end and also assures us it will not rise up again.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gail]

I have the older edition of The Fire That Consumes. I need to get around to upgrading it, AND reading it thoroughly. I've only read fragments of it here and there.

It's really too bad that LeRoy Froom's "Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers" is no longer in print.

Did you know Gail that LeRoy Froom's 2-volume set, Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, is a total of about 2,476 pages?

Interestingly, I heard that Fudge cites Froom now and then.

Yes, he does! I noticed that right away, that there was a name I was familiar with. It sounds like Fudge knew Froom personally.

[Gail]

It sounds like conditionalism might not be as rare as one might think.

The everlasting burning-in-hell doctrine did not originate in the Old Testament, but Fudge does a good job of following its history. He lines it up as entering in in the Inter-testamental period (and quotes Apocryphal as well as extra-Biblical Jewish cultural sources) as originating probably with Plato and Greek thought.

He does a good job in examining and providing examples from both sides of the issue, I thought. Much more than I ever needed to know.

[Gail]

When it came to the Reformation, it seems the church leaned more towards Calvin's thoughts than Luther's on this... and didn't really investigate it as much as perhaps they should have.

[Gail]

The Conditional Faith of Our Fathers is available at the GC website. You will need to download a plug-in to read it. I have trouble getting that plug-in at home on my Mac...

But it's a way to get it for free

[skyblue888]

Gibs you wrote: "It is God, Yahweh Himself that is the consuming fire of hell."

Gibs

_____________

The passage that says that "God is a consuming fire" has nothing to do with hell fire but with sanctification. The Spirit of God is a consuming fire to sin. It is "The Spirit of burning." The Spirit consumes the sin in us without detroying us.

And the fire that will consume the wicked at the end of the thousand years will not directly come from the Lord out of Heaven any more than God directly sends strong delusions to those who do not have the love of the truth. The problem is one of understanding/interpreting the language.

Here is a perfect example from Patriarchs and Prophets:

Because David had neglected the duty of punishing the crime of Amnon, and because of the unfaithfulness of the king and father and the impenitence of the son, the Lord permitted events to take their natural course, and did not restrain Absalom.

The Lord said to David, "Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house."

This was fufilled as Absalom carried out the vile suggestion of Ahithophel to take David's wives to himself according to the custom of oriental nations, thus declaring that he succeeded to his father's throne.

The words "I will raise up evil against you out of your own house," means that the Lord did not exercise His power to restrain Absalom from carrying out Ahithophel's vile suggestion.

Immediately following this passage, Mrs. White says, "Not that God prompted these acts of wickedness, but because of David's sin He did not exercise His power to prevent them." Patriarchs and Prophets, 739,728.

Another example is when we read that "God slew Saul and gave the kingdom over to David." 1 Chro.10:14.

God did not kill Saul. Saul fell on his sword and died. Saul killed himself. Saul had lost God's protection.

So we need to heed the words of Jesus, "How readest thou?"

sky

[Gibs]

Sky,

Hell and death are not what is eternal, The only thing and one that is eternal is Yahweh, a Consuming Fire, known also as "Vehement Flame", He it is that consumes as none else can that no trace is left. When He comes the elements will melt with fervent heat the same as Mt. Sinai is still today the top blackened and glazed.

In actuality all who die have actually fallen on their own sword as did Saul.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Here is an example of how His consuming fire will consume,

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

When He comes He will be "HOT" and when HE destroys the wicked He will be "HOT".

Example of His "indignation" brought out here in,

Da 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

(indignation is ) za`am zah'-am

from 2194; strictly froth at the mouth, i.e. (figuratively) fury (especially of God's displeasure with sin):--angry, indignation, rage.

It is He Yahweh the Fire that consumes and the last thing It consumes is death and hell. It sure isn't hell that is eternal, it is done away with and will be no more.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BobRyan]

Significant? Not sure. I haven't done a poll. I just give it to ones I think would be interested.

Our current pastor knows we are annihilationist as well and doesn't seem to get worked up about it, and allows me to teach, preach, etc.

Good news indeed - given that spiritualism regarding the state of the dead is going to be one of the key end-time errors used by Satan to sweep the entire world into his net.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

There is a movie in the works about this.

Ok - I am interested. Who is doing it? When will it be out?

in Christ,

Bob

[tall73]

I have the older edition of The Fire That Consumes. I need to get around to upgrading it, AND reading it thoroughly. I've only read fragments of it here and there.

It's really too bad that LeRoy Froom's "Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers" is no longer in print.

Did you know Gail that LeRoy Froom's 2-volume set, Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, is a total of about 2,476 pages?

Interestingly, I heard that Fudge cites Froom now and then.

Were you aware that Conditionalist Faith of our Fathers is freely available in Dejavu format on the GC archives site?

http://www.adventistarchives.org/documents.asp?CatID=172&SortBy=0&ShowDateOrder=True

[doug yowell]

Even common "horse" sense tells us that for a mere few years of life in sin, which to Him is but a breath, He would not burn and torture for eternity.

Yes, how can a finite being be guilty of an infinite crime? God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked so He keeps them alive and just tortures them for eternity?

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Stan

There is a movie in the works about this.

Ok - I am interested. Who is doing it? When will it be out?

in Christ,

Bob

Pat Arrabito, widow to Jim Arrabito, is the Executive Producer

[Gail]

Thanks for posting that, Marcos! I am excited to see it, too! Patsy has come out with the most amazing projects- first the Seventh-Day series, and now this one.