Was Joseph married before he wed Mary?

[doctortechie]

http://www.vop.com/previous_broadcasts/2005/april/05164.htm

Paster Melashenko speaks about Jesus' family on earth and that Joseph had children from earlier marriage. Is that true?

[doctortechie]

I take it that no one knows? I haven't been able to corroborate this with scripture so was wondering where VOP got this info from.

[wicklunds]

The fact that Jesus had brothers who were older infers such a situation.

Jesus worked to relieve every case of suffering that He saw. He had little money to give, but He often denied Himself of food in order to relieve those who appeared more needy than He. His brothers felt that His influence went far to counteract theirs. He possessed a tact which none of them had, or desired to have. When they spoke harshly to poor, degraded beings, Jesus sought out these very ones, and spoke to them words of encouragement. To those who were in need He would give a cup of cold water, and would quietly place His own meal in their hands. As He relieved their sufferings, the truths He taught were associated with His acts of mercy, and were thus riveted in the memory. {DA 87.1}

All this displeased His brothers. Being older than Jesus, they felt that He should be under their dictation. They charged Him with thinking Himself superior to them, and reproved Him for setting Himself above their teachers and the priests and rulers of the people. Often they threatened and tried to intimidate Him; but He passed on, making the Scriptures His guide. {DA 87.2}

[bevin]

There is a reference to brothers - Matt 12:47.

"Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren are standing without, seeking to speak to thee."

There is a certain amount of Catholic sexuality nonsense coming in here, in trying to understand who these brethren were. There are some ideas from the 250-500 AD's involved, specifically

(1) Of course Mary was sinless, and hence never had sex before or after Jesus, and hence Jesus could not possibly have had younger siblings. This incorrect view of sex does not come from Jewish society - it is a Christian abberation from around 100-400 AD.

Therefore these brothers must have been older - and they could not possibly have been Mary's, so they must have been Joseph's.

A similar attitude worth mentioning is ...

(2) Of course Jesus never married - even though that can't be proven from scripture - indeed the fact that he is called Rabbi and was 30 years of age without any mention of NOT married strongly indicates He was. It was almost underheard of NOT to marry and would have been worth a comment.

Now watch all the conservative SDA and other Christians pile on an say Jesus was not married - yet also watch for the complete lack of evidence for this view - it is just a piece of Christian mythology.

/Bevin

[wicklunds]

Okay....??

You seem to pad your doubt-mongering points with willy-nilly prophecy. But anyway, would Paul counsel that it would better for Christians not to marry if Jesus Himself had been? This would be the ultimate in hypocritical religion. Lets not flatter ourselves with the unbiblical.

[bevin]

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But anyway, would Paul counsel that it would better for Christians not to marry if Jesus Himself had been?

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Oh?

Where did Paul council ALL christians not to marry?

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1 Corinthians 7

1. Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

2. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, [:"red"]let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.[/]

3. Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

4. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

5. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

6. But I speak this by permission, and[:"red"] not of commandment.[/]

7. For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

8. I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.

9. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

10. And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

11. But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

12. But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

13. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

15. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

16. For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

17. But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

18. Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.

19. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

20. Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

21. Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.

22. For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.

23. Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

24. Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.

25. [:"red"]Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment[/], as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.

26. I suppose therefore that this is good [:"red"]for the present distress[/], I say, that it is good for a man so to be.

27. Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.

28. But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.

29. But this I say, brethren, [:"red"]the time is short[/]: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;

30. And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not;

31. And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.

32. But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:

33. But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

34. There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

35. And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.

36. But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.

37. Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.

38. So then [:"red"]he that giveth her in marriage doeth well[/]; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.

39. The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

40. But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.

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/Bevin

[wicklunds]

Would it make a difference to you if I told you?

[wicklunds]

Like I said in the initial post, it was a counsel. And yes, it makes a difference to me.

1Co 7:8 But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.

You seemed to have glossed over this in your post...

[Parade Orange]

THERE IT IS!!!!!!

I Cor 7:29

Dont have sex with your spouse!!!!!! Cause time is short

JESUS is comind soon!!!!!

I was looking for that verse!!!!

Why did Paul say that? At Mount Sini God told them not to have sex also Cause He was about to shake themountain with His Presence. DID Paul BELIEVE that JESUS was coming in his day? Why no sex. I dont have an invested interest in this biblical commandment/admonition/suggestion.

But I do want to hear what others think. I get so many interesting/compelling/weird theology from people at my church.

What do you all make of this verse?????????????

[Parade Orange]

Yes Paul did say not to marry.

He said be as him.

I dont intend to marry a girl. 8:O) Yahoo!

[Bravus]

You may well be more like Paul than you know... And I'll leave that train of thought there.

[wicklunds]

Utterly amazing what people do with God's word...And I'll leave that train of thought there.

[Clio]

Why should it matter if Jesus had younger or older brothers or if Joseph was married priot to wedding Mary?

Nether of those circumstances matter to our salvation nor do they contribute to focusing on Jesus, His life, atonement for our sins, and soon return?

The entire discussion is a distraction from Him.

[bevin]

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Why should it matter if Jesus had younger or older brothers or if Joseph was married priot to wedding Mary?

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Bingo, Clio. But organized christianity is run by leaders and groups that depend on using guilt-trips to manipulate their followers - and sex is one of the best handles for such manipulation.

You see it used in the Catholic church - Priests can't marry. Married people can't use contraception.

You see it used in the Protestant churches - anything more than holding hands before marriage is a sin, masturbation is a sin.

You see it used in both as "homosexuality is a sin".

It is all part of trying to manipulate other people.

/Bevin

[Clio]

Paul, being Paul, is a bit of a mysoginist. When it comes to women, you will find Paul's harshest comments are when he is speaking as Paul and not for Abba.

Fortunately, in his sticklerness for detail, most of the time Paul tells us, "Now, this is what I, Paul think, not from the Lord, but from me."

HOWEVER that said, I also think that Paul was feeling the urgency of HIS OWN ministry as laid on him by Abba... and there was a distinct feeling of time being short.

Keep in mind, that Revelation was written on the Island of Patmos, long after most of the other apostles and laborers in the early church were dead. There was not an exact blueprint of the order of events that must be fulfilled in order for Jesus to return and take us all home.

We are reading Paul from the vantage point of additionally revealed truth. Many years after Paul wrote those words.

Clio

[doctortechie]

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Why should it matter if Jesus had younger or older brothers or if Joseph was married priot to wedding Mary?

Nether of those circumstances matter to our salvation nor do they contribute to focusing on Jesus, His life, atonement for our sins, and soon return?

The entire discussion is a distraction from Him.

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Well, if that's the crux of the matter then why bother visiting this site? or any other Internet site for that matter. The reason why I asked the question was that I had heard the statement on the Voice of Prophecy and was naturally inquisitive. I take no responsibility in the wild tangents the others have gone on.

Personally, I believe in what is written in the Bible ... so if anyone can answer the question I asked, then that would be great

[Ron Corson]

The Bible no where says that Jesus had older brothers or sisters. Why it matters is that if Jesus had older siblings then when the Bible says Mary was a virgin it was wrong assuming by virgin it means having never had sex. If by virgin it just means a young women it would not matter as much. The point of the gospels which mention the birth of Jesus is that she had not had sex with her intended husband. Which within the culture would also suggest a virgin sex status as well.

Of course after a couple starts a family in a world without birth control it is very common to continue to have children which would give Jesus younger brothers and sisters.

Now there is a logical fallacy which is referred to as an argument from silence. In which case people assume all kinds of things because they are not written about. For instance the one about Joseph having other children from a previous marriage.

All in all the subject is usually created by the tradition that one assigns to the story, not the actual Biblical story. As is seen in the Roman Catholic tradition or the SDA tradition as mentioned above by the EGW quotes. Or as the Mormon tradition that Jesus had multiple wives. So contrary to Clio concept of these things as a diversion they are intregal to actual hermenutic techniques which determine ones religious views.

[Clio]

I cannot agree with your post Bevin.

Sexual immorality of any kind is an abomination before Abba. And it is sin. Abba is not trying to manipulate us with His prohibition against all sexual immorality... which He has graciously granted us specifics as to what contitutes it.

What Abba forbids is not because He doesn't want us to have fun... He forbids because ...Hello!!!! It's DANGEROUS... longterm deadly in fact.

Sexual immorality has been used to power demonic entity calling and control, layer in demons into people through sex magick, and attach low level demonic entities to peoples very souls. Left un-treated with Jesus Blood, :shudder: I know first hand what it almost did to my husband...

The point I was trying to make, is that we know Jesus had siblings in Joseph's and Mary's family. We are not told in Scripture whether they were older, from a previous marriage by Joseph, or younger, a product of Joseph's marriage to Mary.

Both situations are irrelevant to the plan of salvation. Because in either case, the correct emphasis, the heritage of David, with the right of sitting on the throne, being called the Lion of Judah, is through Mary. HER virginity is the only relevant topic because Joseph could never be Jesus father.

In order for prophecy to be fulfilled, Jesus only humanity must come from the line of David that had never been denied the throne.

Joseph, as you will from the Genealogy in Matthew is from the line of Jeconiah... who was denied the throne in perpetuity. Mary on the other hand, is from the true, Lion of Judah line... and although her geneology found in Luke ends with Joseph, you will note it is a different Joseph (by virture of who Mary's grandfather was) than the Joseph who was her husband.

Jesus was, without doubt, Mary's firstborn. His precedence in family order, is irrelevant and yet another distraction from the point of the Gospel... to bear witness to the good news of reconciliation with Abba Father through Jesus His Beloved Son.

Clio

[doctortechie]

So....does no one have an answer to why the VOP stated that Joseph had children from another marriage? Is this found somewhere in EGW's writings?

[doctortechie]

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The fact that Jesus had brothers who were older infers such a situation.

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Does it actually say in the Bible that he had older brothers?

[Ron Corson]

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So....does no one have an answer to why the VOP stated that Joseph had children from another marriage? Is this found somewhere in EGW's writings?

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I don't know if it is explicit in EGW but certainly implied:

[:"green"] Desire of Ages.086.001

At a very early age, Jesus had begun to act for Himself in the formation of His character, and not even respect and love for His parents could turn Him from obedience to God's word. "It is written" was His reason for every act that varied from the family customs. But the influence of the rabbis made His life a bitter one. Even in His youth He had to learn the hard lesson of silence and patient endurance.

DA.086.002

His brothers, as the sons of Joseph were called, sided with the rabbis They insisted that the traditions must be heeded, as if they were the requirements of God. They even regarded the precepts of men more highly than the word of God, and they were greatly annoyed at the clear penetration of Jesus in distinguishing between the false and the true His strict obedience to the law of God they condemned as stubbornness. They were surprised at the knowledge and wisdom He showed in answering the rabbis. They knew that He had not received instruction from the wise men, yet they could not but see that He was an instructor to them. They recognized that His education was of a higher type than their own. But they did not discern that He had access to the tree of life, a source of knowledge of which they were ignorant.

DA.087.002

All this displeased His brothers. Being older than Jesus, they felt that He should be under their dictation. They charged Him with thinking Himself superior to them, and reproved Him for setting Himself above their teachers and the priests and rulers of the people. Often they threatened and tried to intimidate Him; but He passed on, making the Scriptures His guide.

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