An Open Letter to Ted Wilson Re GC Sponsored Censorship under SSNet.or

[TreeOfLife]

"Letter from Gunnar Anders Smars Jr © MD to Elder Wilson:

Adamah Republic © on the day recognized as "February 20, 2012"

Pastor Ted Wilson

General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists

12501 Old Columbia Pike

Silver Spring, MD 20904

via this post at Club Adventist Forum

Dear Pastor Wilson,

I am being much impressed with your Scripture based teaching wherever I have seen it thus far, but I have a question for you:

Why is the General Conference, under your directorship, standing behind the Bible study suppressive activities of the staff of Moderators at SSNet.org?

I realize that SSNet.org is a private web site which is not directly within the control of the General Conference, but why is the publishing of the time honored Sabbath School Bible Study Quarterly being entrusted to an entity on the web which is so closely associated with an instrumentality which, in my mind, is serving the interests of the all time Bible suppressing powers behind the Vatican?

Please do whatever you can to change that sad state of affairs! In my mind those censorship activities are little short of that which the Roman Catholic Church did by means of the Inquisition during centuries past.

I cannot seriously believe that you are standing behind such activities. Or are you?

For details, please refer to my report re my own ongoing firsthand experience of said censorship at SSNet.org. Please use this link...

I thank you for your time, and, in advance, for your thoughtful responses.

Sincerely,

Gunnar Anders Smars Jr © MD

Class of 78A LLUSM

PS. I don’t know what this email from the SSNET Moderator team, that I just now received, looks like to you, but to me it smells much like that intimidation technique which the powers that be are so widely using for steering the masses wherever they wish them to go.

* * * * * * * *

Stan if you don't think this should be on here, feel free to delete it.

I, one of many, think that it is high time that these spiritually unethical colleges were brought to accountability.

ToL ©

[Dr. Rich]

What's new? That's been going on for ages! Why mess with them anyway?

[Inga]

What's new? That's been going on for ages! Why mess with them anyway?

Yeah, we've been running a blog "for ages" going all the way back to June 2011!

You pose a good question, though, Rich. Why, indeed, when there's all of ClubAdventist to enjoy Gunnar Smars's lengthy posts.

That said, we welcome posts from all comers -- providing they are on-topic and courteous. After all, we run a blog, not an open forum -- at least not yet. Even hard questions are fine, as long as they are on-topic and understandable.

PS If Gunnar would be so kind as to point out where the Vatican has stowed all the loot paid to us for doing its bidding, I'd be much obliged.

[TreeOfLife]

ToL ©

Dear Inga,

I really like the way you have designed your post above! It seems so much more alive than my own post at the top of the thread... At least on the surface.

Also, seeing that, if I am not totally misinformed, you are the owner and controller at the head of SSNet.org, I feel honored indeed by seeing your posted comment so near the top of this thread. Thank you Inga!

And, if I may say a word or two in defense of Dr. Rich's statement, which you seem to have taken to heart: I don't really think that Dr. Rich's word "them" is a specific reference to SSNet.org alone. To me he is seeing a bigger picture than that. Much bigger! From his point of view, there might be more pressing matters, but God is opening each our eyes for different things needing to be done in His vineyard. Thus the many and abundant blessings of a society consisting of many truth oriented members with an eye towards finding the ultimate solutions...

To me an important key to the resolution of problems, such as the one before us at this time, is for each of us to ask ourselves questions such as: What part responsibility do I myself have for initiating and maintaining the present problem?

It is not about pointing the proverbial finger, but a matter of becoming ever more aware of the reality of the three fingers pointing back to self.

We are all in this together, are we not? Think about it! Remember Martin Luther! Like so many of us, he too did his best towards taking responsibility for his part of the actions and beingness of his own church. The one that he had grown up to identify with. For him it was the Roman Catholic Church. For me it is the Seventh-day Advent movement. As with each our families it behooves each of us to do our best to learn ever better ways of coming closer to one another such that we may live in peace while enjoying each others company to the extent that we are being honored by such company. I know I have much yet to learn. I also know that my Maker isn't finished with me yet... And I certainly agree with you that shorter is better, but not at the expense of becoming so superficial that the point is easily being missed.

As to your questions to me re the Vatican... Well, I believe you are better off looking to the source for that information. If you are seriously interested in learning the truth re such matters I have no doubt but that you'll be able to find that today's libraries, as well as such as is being made available through the InterNet, is replete with references and specifics such as you may be looking for. If I were to try to stand as a middle man between you and the truth of such strange things, I have already learned that you are a most unwilling listener re such matters. Additionally, I might be apt to misunderstand your questions as posed and to provide you with answers that you are not looking for, nor willing to take to heart. For example, seeing one of your pretty smileys, twice repeated, I might be misled to misinterpret it as one of the key secret greetings, and signs of recognition, between members of the Free Masonry. Indeed, I could be both misinformed as well as having an inexact memory re the specifics of the greeting that I am alluding to... Also, upon seeing the winking eye of that smiley, Proverbs 10:10 and Acts 17:30 contain important messages coming to my mind...

To me, it is becoming ever more clear that our society, our churches, our families, each of us, in thought, as well as in action, are far from being free from that Roman Catholic heritage against which Martin Luther protested. We behoove it to ourselves, each of us, to wake up and to see ourselves ever more clearly in the mirrors of love that the Creator is providing for each of us. Thus we owe it to ourselves to walk in the footsteps of the Saviors that have been walking this walk, the Way, towards the Kingdom of God, before us. I am thinking, of course, of Yeshua, the Messiah, but also of Martin Luther, and of our beloved Seventh-day Adventist pioneers. Cf. Obadiah 1:21 KJV...

What's yours is yours. What's mine is mine. There are boundaries. The more exactly we learn to recognize and to respect those boundaries for what they are, the more security and the more peace we will all enjoy.

Being a living breathing Seventh-day Adventist since my beginnings I cannot but identify with the real time values I have learnt to recognize in that name. I believe I have a responsibility for standing up for my convictions re such specific truths as I am being taught along the way of my life, especially such truths as I find being central to the Bible itself. Not excluding such things as pertain to the quality of my means of communication with my beloved brothers and sisters within our church family...

No doubt you do too... Yet, as I said, there is yet only too much guano being hidden in the corners of our cubbards. That is, in our traditional schools of thought. If each of us do our best not to stop one another from seeing - and removing - whatever stains of guano each of us may see, we might all soon enough find ourselves living in a much healthier, happier, and delightful society than any of us could ever dream of. Thus the importance of not being involved in any species of forced censorship beyond that which pertain to each our own self.

May the peace of our Creator and Redeemer rest over each our families, homes, churches, blogs, and forums,

Gunnar ©

PS. I suppose this post too is too long and too redundant for your liking. Sorry! I do hope I didn't lose you along the way... No offense intended though! Ever!

ToL ©

[Stan]

Gunnar, how is the GC involved with this?

[Stan]

Always nice to see my friend Inga show up here.

[TreeOfLife]

Thanks for your question, Stan!

Perhaps my initial post isn't making that issue quite clear enough? Sorry about that!

My intent was that my words " why is the publishing of the time honored Sabbath School Bible Study Quarterly being entrusted to..." would be sufficient to briefly answer a question such as yours. However, the error is on me for being only too brief re that which is at the very heart of the point that I am trying to get across.

It seems to me as though our time honored Sabbath School Bible Study Quarterlies are among the most valuable treasures we have inherited from those who have gone before us. It seems to me inescapable that the General Conference, being the chief administrative unit in our midst, has always had a responsibility for such things as pertain to the publishing of said Sabbath School Bible Study Quarterlies.

The only place I know of, on the InterNet, where I go to find, study, and prepare myself for the Bible Study (English version) of the next Sabbath, is SSNet.org.

I certainly do not believe that the GC has a monopoly on the rights of producing such a study. Yet, seeing that so many of our people are looking towards whatever is being condoned and approved by the GC, most especially re the Sabbath School Bible Study Quarterlies, I do believe that the GC has a role to play, and a responsibility to shoulder.

I fail to see how the General Conference administration can avoid being responsible for said things pertaining to the Sabbath School Bible Study Quarterlies. For instance, re who is being given the honor of producing and of publishing the same.

But perhaps I am missing something?

Blessings,

Gunnar ©

[Naomi]

Always nice to see my friend Inga show up here.

[Stan]

Dr Gunnar

You question to NWilson was

Quote:

Why is the General Conference, under your directorship, standing behind the Bible study suppressive activities of the staff of Moderators at SSNet.org?

Tell me how they are standing behind this?

Or are you REALLY expecting them to approve and watch everything that every lay person does on the internet?

[Gibs]

Well, well, well, I think it may be called a downgrading. The Catholic church is known to be Hierarchical, what others are?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[tall73]

Dr Gunnar

You question to NWilson was

Quote:

Why is the General Conference, under your directorship, standing behind the Bible study suppressive activities of the staff of Moderators at SSNet.org?

Tell me how they are standing behind this?

Or are you REALLY expecting them to approve and watch everything that every lay person does on the internet?

They threatened legal action against blacksda and maritimesda since they were using sda which they claimed was copyrighted, etc.

So it is not beyond the realm of possibility.

[TreeOfLife]

ToL ©

Stan, I highly value your feedback and your efforts to make these issues abundantly clear. Thanks!

To respond to your last question first:

Or are you REALLY expecting them to approve and watch everything that every lay person does on the internet?

[Stan]

The do have the complete quarterly on the iPad and iPhones..

[TreeOfLife]

ToL ©

Dear Tall73,

I don't believe the answer is found in litigation. Ever! Litigation is always in the nature of delegating responsibility to another.

The essence of Bible teaching is for each of us to learn to be more accountable for each our own actions. To take back our God given powers. Not the other way around. Cf. Luke 12:57-59

Real and valuable solutions are found in keeping things small and in resolving things privately among the parties involved. Asking any third party to take over the powers of decision will necessarily lead to more blindness and worse consequences. On the other hand, seeking more experienced counsel, for the purpose of being better able to make one's own decision, may be a wise decision. There is a difference, believe me!

May the peace of our Savior rest upon each our families and homes forever,

Gunnar ©

ToL ©

[TreeOfLife]

The[y] do have the complete quarterly on the iPad and iPhones..

Good thing! If I had and iPad or an IPhone...

But where is the open forum, uncensored, associated with the Sabbath School Bible Study Quarterly, where a serious dialog, aiming towards an ever deeper insight into the teachings of the Holy Scriptures, is taking place? A place not merely seeking to promote the Present Truths of yesteryear, or the agenda of any certain denomination or church (at the exclusion of any new rays of light?)

[Stan]

Here is the short story about blogs or forums, if you want the freedom, you have to create your own.

Most forums, and this is one, does not allow solicitation of members to other forums.

The GC had a forum, but it caused so many problems.

The people at adventist talk, pretty much added ever nail to the coffin with their slander and hate mongering , all in the name of Jesus.

[Inga]

One prime objective of the Sabbath School Bible Study Quarterly is to promote an open dialog with a focus upon the teachings of the Holy Scriptures.

...

More in line with Ellen White's instructions as provided in the first 35 pages of Counsels on Sabbath School Work...

More of an open forum... Counseling, yes. But, censorship, no. There is a distinct difference.

It's called "moderation," not censorship. There is a distinct difference.

Censorship implies not allowing opposing opinions or questions to be posed. A review of the SSNET blog should demonstrate that we do not censor.

However we do moderate according to clearly posted guide lines. That is to ensure a good dialogue experience for all our readers -- not just a select few who have an axe to grind.

That said, a blog is more like a magazine with reader feedback than a forum like this where individuals can start their own topics. Promoting your own topic (and website) under someone else's post is considered bad form on any blog.

There are many other places to discuss the Sabbath School lesson. One of them seems to be right here on Clubadventist.

[Gail]

It's called "moderation," not censorship. There is a distinct difference.

Censorship implies not allowing opposing opinions or questions to be posed. A review of the SSNET blog should demonstrate that we do not censor.

However we do moderate according to clearly posted guide lines. That is to ensure a good dialogue experience for all our readers -- not just a select few who have an axe to grind.

That said, a blog is more like a magazine with reader feedback than a forum like this where individuals can start their own topics. Promoting your own topic (and website) under someone else's post is considered bad form on any blog.

There are many other places to discuss the Sabbath School lesson. One of them seems to be right here on Clubadventist.

[TreeOfLife]

ToL©

Here is the short story about blogs or forums, if you want the freedom, you have to create your own.

Most forums, and this is one, does not allow solicitation of members to other forums.

The GC had a forum, but it caused so many problems.

The people at adventist talk, pretty much added ever nail to the coffin with their slander and hate mongering , all in the name of Jesus.

Thanks Stan,

That, to me, sounds like a diagnosis, that is, an identification of a fundamental problem, or, if you will, a confession re who we are or where we are at. And isn't that a most important and necessary first step towards finding a lasting solution?

In other words, at the top level of our church hierarchy, to say nothing about the state of matters lower down, there is yet something to learn regarding the difference between pointing the finger, as in "slander and hate mongering...," and between being solution oriented, that is, salvation oriented. As in being willing to take personal responsibility for finding a solution to the problem one is seeing. As in taking back one's power upon one's own two shoulders. As in being proactive rather than reactive. As in being a head and not a tail. As in learning from Jesus to stand up and walk the walk regardless of what it may cost, that is, in contradistinction to merely using Jesus as just another meek lamb upon which one may safely point the finger while being under the presumption that he will always accept the blame, our blame. That is, by us shifting our blame upon him...

Sounds to me like we are in need of a forum where the very objective of our work is to eliminate every specific need for our very own specific problem solving expertise. A forum where the actors are willing and truly desiring for their visitors to be ready and able to seek other pasture. A forum where solicitation to other forums is welcome, even invited, not because that first forum of ours has failed to meet the needs, but because the needy have become freed from their bondage, ties, and ills, and are now ready and able to go on with life on ever higher ground...

But that to me is one and the same as the Gospel Truth: God has a solution to each and every problem. He is more than willing to set His People free. Each One of us! And yet we know that outside of Him there exists no real freedom. Only fiction.

Indeed, why are we ever afraid of promoting freedom, even the soliciting towards other fora?

Are we not yet convinced about the truth inherent in the words: "The truth shall set you free!"

Thus perhaps the prescription for the ills of the GC forum is this: The GC needs to freely and generously promote private forums, blogs, etc., private initiatives, private incentives, ever new branch Sabbath Schools, ever new Seventh-day Adventist churches, each and all without any obligation to report back or to subject themselves to any official policy or policing of the church... All in the name of true Seventh-day Adventism! Under no one but the Creator alone. Without fear of repercussion, that is, other than such as naturally follow in the form of consequence upon a cause.

Yeah, I can buy that!

ToL©

[doug yowell]

perhaps the prescription for the ills of the GC forum is this: The GC needs to freely and generously promote private forums, blogs, etc., private initiatives, private incentives, ever new branch Sabbath Schools, ever new Seventh-day Adventist churches, each and all without any obligation to report back or to subject themselves to any official policy or policing of the church... All in the name of true Seventh-day Adventism! Under no one but the Creator alone. Without fear of repercussion, that is, other than such as naturally follow in the form of consequence upon a cause.

Yeah, I can buy that!

ToL©

I can see it now, Dale Ratzlaff,Doug Batchelor, Desmond Ford,and Vance Farrell standing arm in arm and exclaiming,"We are brothers!"

[Inga]

I can see it now, Dale Ratzlaff,Doug Batchelor, Desmond Ford,and Vance Farrell standing arm in arm and exclaiming,"We are brothers!"

Not a bad idea, don't you think? Better than this:

(Love these great smilies!)

[Inga]

The GC needs to freely and generously promote private forums, blogs, etc., private initiatives, private incentives, ever new branch Sabbath Schools, ever new Seventh-day Adventist churches, each and all without any obligation to report back or to subject themselves to any official policy or policing of the church... All in the name of true Seventh-day Adventism!

[doug yowell]

Are you a willing tool being directly paid by the Vatican? Or else, are you merely being influenced by your own training and indoctrination under the Vatican infiltrators of the Seventh-day Adventist church?

To put it a little more succinctly, that is, in terms of the Scriptures own terminology: Is your 666 mark being placed on your forehead, or merely on your right hand?

IOW, "Are you still molesting your children because you can't help it or are others paying you to do it?"

[TreeOfLife]

Originally Posted By: TreeOfLife

One prime objective of the Sabbath School Bible Study Quarterly is to promote an open dialog with a focus upon the teachings of the Holy Scriptures.

...

More in line with Ellen White's instructions as provided in the first 35 pages of Counsels on Sabbath School Work...

More of an open forum... Counseling, yes. But, censorship, no. There is a distinct difference.

It's called "moderation," not censorship. There is a distinct difference.

Censorship implies not allowing opposing opinions or questions to be posed. A review of the SSNET blog should demonstrate that we do not censor.

However we do moderate according to clearly posted guide lines. That is to ensure a good dialogue experience for all our readers -- not just a select few who have an axe to grind.

That said, a blog is more like a magazine with reader feedback than a forum like this where individuals can start their own topics. Promoting your own topic (and website) under someone else's post is considered bad form on any blog.

There are many other places to discuss the Sabbath School lesson. One of them seems to be right here on Clubadventist.

Thanks Inga,

Yes, I agree with you that there is a distinct difference between 'censoring' and 'moderation.' Yes, I agree with your definitions of the meaning of each of those two words.

However, I do not know what your very first word, "It," is in reference to? I presume that it may be a reference to your own perception of your own activities on your blog. I know for certain that your "it" can not be pointing to my very own firsthand experience of your "blog." Per your own definitions of those words, I have encountered, within your blog, extensive censorship. Yes, 'censorship,' not 'moderation.'

But I understand where you are coming from: You are coming from your point of view. Not from my point of view, nor from the view of any other. Therefore, you are willing and able to construe and excuse any and every form of censorship (per your definition) by finding also, in someone's posted comment, any deviation whatsoever from your own "guide lines" as liberally interpreted by you, that is, something in apparent need of moderation.

From the horse's mouth, that is, in your own words (almost:) "A review of the SSNET blog should demonstrate that we do not censor."

Allow me to quote a very few words out of that linked post of your very own: "According to our understanding, this is contrary to what the Bible commands and what the Seventh-day Adventist church teaches... Since you have made your position clear, we ask you not to submit any more posts suggesting..." After those last words of yours, follow words which to me are a clear and obvious misunderstanding of my position as made clear in the post immediately above yours.

And that's just one of your own posts to the same effect. That is, censorship - per your definition of that word.

But seeing that you have not ever been in a position of seeing things from my point of view, I can understand that the pictures I am doing my very best to paint in the colors of clear sunshine, are still being as if covered by a thick fog in your eyes. That is, confusing, redundant, overly wordy, too lengthy, etc., etc..

I find it quite likely that where you are seeing nothing of lasting value in a post of mine, some of your readers may find rare and valuable treasures. Yet, they won't ever find them after all such treasures, unseen and unrecognized by your censorship team, have been censored out of your blog. To the detriment of all of us.

And vice versa: I have no doubts but that some treasures which in your eyes are sparkling in all the colors of the sun shine, well, to me they may still appear as nothing but any little rock in the fog.

Thus recognizing my own limitations, I also recognize the importance of accepting you as you are. That's why I have to respect you even where as yet I have little or no understanding of your point of view. That's why I have no right of censoring you. That's why I have no wish to stop you from being you or from building upon your dreams. That is, so long as you likewise do not trespass upon my boundaries, upon my right to express as best I can that which I perceive from my point of view. That is, so long as you cease from mislabeling your actions against me as mere "moderation" when indeed your actions are truly "censorship."

Please recognize that what I truly wish, is for your blog to become ever much more valuable to all participants than it now can be! Just think this little thought with me: Recognizing as I do, that any number of your other blog participants are being equally censored as I am, How can I ever count on receiving some of the most valuable treasures of those other censored participants??? I can't! Can I? But that pretty much kills any effective communication between the participants of your blog. And, to me, effective communication is absolutely essential in order to truly solve any problem. That is, effective communication is one of the essentials of true salvation as taught in the Holy Scriptures.

Peace to all,

Gunnar ©

ToL ©

[CoAspen]

Quote:

However, I do not know what your very first word, "It," is in reference to?

Seems we had a Pres that went down that road!!!

At best, your post is somewhat 'wandering'! Perhaps an outline on your part would be helpful for others to decide as to the validity of your 'argument', if it is one!