Does the Devil Care?

[CGMedley]

E. Edward Zinke asks, "Does the devil care whether we have faith? Read more.

http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2012-1506&page=6

[phkrause]

This was an interesting article, thanks for posting.

[M. T. Cross]

That article points out one of my greatest issues with the Biblical message.

It portrays a God that creates a people. He gives them an amazing intellect and sense of reason to make sound decisions. But here is the catch, we are not to use any of those things when it comes to him. We are to go along blindly believing everything he says, even when it dfies all logic or even common sense. He does not bother explaining much of anything and really most of the expanations given are fairly out there.

Seems to me that he set the majority of the human race, a race it is claimed that he loves above all, up for failure.

[CoAspen]

Do you set up your children for failure? Are you saying that you do not know what is best for them? Do you just produce them and then say 'you're on your own'? Do you ever tell them the right way, knowing what will happen if they make the wrong choice? Is it a lie that you love them when they make the wrong choices and suffer the results?

I do not see God as being any different. Religion paints God in many different ways, most of the time wrong! We do have a choice, we are not condemned, by God, for that choice. We simply reap the results. Humans have a difficult time accepting that premise, because from the beginning they started with the excuses, need to blame someone!

Jump out of tree and what happens, simply a 'law' of physics!

[M. T. Cross]

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Do you set up your children for failure?

Of course not

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Are you saying that you do not know what is best for them?

I would like to think that I do but I can admit when I am wrong about that, particularly as they get older and know more

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Do you just produce them and then say 'you're on your own'?

Of course not

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Do you ever tell them the right way, knowing what will happen if they make the wrong choice?

Of course, but I go out of my way to make that make sense. For example, drugs. When my older kids where a bit younger and getting to that age where they would be exposed to drugs we had a talk with them about that. We did not lie, we told them exactly how good drugs make you feel. Then we took them down to skid row and let them see the other side of the coin. We made it make sense. I am happy to say my son left a party a while ago because people were starting to do cocaine at it.

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Is it a lie that you love them when they make the wrong choices and suffer the results?

No. But it would be if I never truly explained things clearly and then turned my back on them for making the wrong choice.

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I do not see God as being any different. Religion paints God in many different ways, most of the time wrong! We do have a choice, we are not condemned, by God, for that choice. We simply reap the results. Humans have a difficult time accepting that premise, because from the beginning they started with the excuses, need to blame someone!

There we go!!! You have totally said the same thing as I, with slightly different wording. Well a lot different, but still the same thing.

The religions of the God of Abraham do teach of a vindictive and petty God. One that will condemn, one that will turn his back on you. One that has just left his followers with a very confusing book to determine what he really wants out of his people. Spend 10 minutes down in the Theology forum and it is apparent that its a book that is not very well explained.

See, CoA - I think you must have a pretty close relationship with your God. Because the approach you have to explaining his nature is not the same as those that base their explanations on religion. That is wonderful, and I wish more people would go up and beyond like that.

[CoAspen]

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See, CoA - I think you must have a pretty close relationship with your God.

Ah, no...but I would like too! It is just that most of my life people have and continue to explain God in the manner you are used to hearing. I could never find support for that When I extracted time, events and history from the story. The Bible is a story about God written in large part by humans, hence their interpretation of events. It is only when we focus on What God actually says that we see the real persona. Christ came to change the perception of God and people still want to cling to the old perception.

I understand your questions because they are my own. My conclusions will not appease a great many people, but it works for me.

[fccool]

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Do you set up your children for failure? Are you saying that you do not know what is best for them? Do you just produce them and then say 'you're on your own'? Do you ever tell them the right way, knowing what will happen if they make the wrong choice? Is it a lie that you love them when they make the wrong choices and suffer the results?

If my, or anyone else's child was left in a hot car to die... I simply would not sit there and cry and blame Satan and sin for all of this.

I would do anything in my power to open that car, or at least call attention of people and dial 911.

The fact is, there are millions of children dying of hunger needlessly. Such events are simply incompatible with the "father figure" that you maintain in the above statement.

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I do not see God as being any different. Religion paints God in many different ways, most of the time wrong! We do have a choice, we are not condemned, by God, for that choice. We simply reap the results.

So, you think it's ok for me to sit and watch someone drown, because it's a result of their negligence? Why would it be ok for God? Can such God exist and be called good?

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Humans have a difficult time accepting that premise, because from the beginning they started with the excuses, need to blame someone!

Not really. The premise is difficult to accept because it's inconsistent.

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Jump out of tree and what happens, simply a 'law' of physics!

I think that the point was the inconsistency of the message. Christian faith simply demands delusional mindset. It expects you to believe in things simply because someone said that these are there. We are not talking about kids, but we are talking about rational adults here.

If I told you that you should believe me because I've created this world and everything in it 5 minutes ago, and fill your head with memories of the past... you better have good reasons to believe me.

Likewise, if you are telling me that there's a loving God that sits and watches from above as thousands of people die every hour simply due to their personal negligence... that makes very good sense

[ClubV12]

Natural law, like gravity or a thunderstorm, those are God's laws too. While God is no respector of persons, when it comes to natural law, that is especially the case.

Well,,,, unless you need the sun to stay up a little longer so you can finish slaying your enemies with the sword, or something like that. His laws, He can change them, manipulate them, increase, decrease of do whatever He want with them when He chooses. Like make it rain for forty days. HE can, you can't, you have to work with them... :)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

The devil was in the Garden of Eden tempting Adam and Eve to trust their own judgment rather than the Word of God.

wrong...Satan was in the Garden of Eden tempting Adam and Eve with proffered power and knowledge..

IMHO

[Overaged]

The fact is, there are millions of children dying of hunger needlessly. Such events are simply incompatible with the "father figure" that you maintain in the above statement.

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I do not see God as being any different. Religion paints God in many different ways, most of the time wrong! We do have a choice, we are not condemned, by God, for that choice. We simply reap the results.

So, you think it's ok for me to sit and watch someone drown, because it's a result of their negligence? Why would it be ok for God? Can such God exist and be called good?

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Humans have a difficult time accepting that premise, because from the beginning they started with the excuses, need to blame someone!

Not really. The premise is difficult to accept because it's inconsistent.

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Jump out of tree and what happens, simply a 'law' of physics!

I think that the point was the inconsistency of the message. Christian faith simply demands delusional mindset. It expects you to believe in things simply because someone said that these are there. We are not talking about kids, but we are talking about rational adults here.

The trouble with your statements here about God's character, is that there are millions who, by your standards in this topic, would have better reason than anyone else to say God cannot be "love" because he lets this this and this happen. But many people who could have such reasons for saying this about God, as you do here, do not say such things about God. They say the opposite. I would have plenty of reason, going by your standards, to say God cannot be "love" because of what has happened to me personally. But I don't say that. I say the opposite.

Now; I could be like you, and dismiss it away with pot-shots like "delusional" and other such attacks; or I could say there might be something to it; I should look into this further. There are people who actually have personal experience opposite to your's and that is not "delusional."

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: EE Zinke

The devil was in the Garden of Eden tempting Adam and Eve to trust their own judgment rather than the Word of God.

wrong...Satan was in the Garden of Eden tempting Adam and Eve with proffered power and knowledge..

IMHO

I think both of you have the right answer.

[phkrause]

The trouble with your statements here about God's character, is that there are millions who, by your standards in this topic, would have better reason than anyone else to say God cannot be "love" because he lets this this and this happen. But many people who could have such reasons for saying this about God, as you do here, do not say such things about God. They say the opposite. I would have plenty of reason, going by your standards, to say God cannot be "love" because of what has happened to me personally. But I don't say that. I say the opposite.

Now; I could be like you, and dismiss it away with pot-shots like "delusional" and other such attacks; or I could say there might be something to it; I should look into this further. There are people who actually have personal experience opposite to your's and that is not "delusional."

Absolutely OA

[M. T. Cross]

The devil was in the Garden of Eden tempting Adam and Eve to trust their own judgment rather than the Word of God.

[phkrause]

Which leads me to wonder......

Why does this God fear these things so much that he makes them against his rules? Why give us the ability to make a judgement call if he does not want us to use it? What knowledge could we get that he does not want us to have? What power could we gain that he does not want us to use?

There would be chaos. We see that in many areas today and throughout history. He knew what would happen, but yet still gave us the right to choose. And than already had a plan to save us from ourselves.

[M. T. Cross]

So why even put the tree there? Why even give us the curious nature that seeks to learn and know that he gave us?

These are the reasons I say that if the Bible is the truth - we were set up to fail. Everything is a test. Test after test after test. Pass a dozen but fail that many too.

Give us emotions, reason and logic, but we are not to use them when this almighty Gods plan reeks of absurdity.

As you have probably figured out by now, I certainly believe in a Divine consiousness/power/being. But I really can't see it as it is portrayed in the Bible. If that is the truth I sure don't want to spend an eternity with a being that plays that many head games.

[Gail]

Set up to fail? It could be that we were set up to pass :)

[Gail]

A test could be to show us the value of a thing. Something that is struggled with and obtained is worth more than something we take for granted.

[Overaged]

So why even put the tree there? Why even give us the curious nature that seeks to learn and know that he gave us?

These are the reasons I say that if the Bible is the truth - we were set up to fail. Everything is a test. Test after test after test. Pass a dozen but fail that many too.

Give us emotions, reason and logic, but we are not to use them when this almighty Gods plan reeks of absurdity.

As you have probably figured out by now, I certainly believe in a Divine consiousness/power/being. But I really can't see it as it is portrayed in the Bible. If that is the truth I sure don't want to spend an eternity with a being that plays that many head games.

Well; God could have just made us robots who were incapable of choosing to go against Him in any way...Would we be better off like that? What would that make God out to be?

I agree; the "test after test" thing is hard at times; but what I have found is that there are positives which come out of those "tests" that I can share with others, to help them along the way too. This makes it all quite worthwhile to me.

I believe, that Jesus, as depicted in the Bible; did emphasize such positives, all along His earthly sojourn with us; and that is the kind of God i would be happy to spend eternity with...

[phkrause]

I do understand where your coming from, but I disagree. See when Lucifer sinned, God could've wiped him out and we would've obeyed by procsy(sp)? As you can see even the angels had a choice? I think Gail has a great thought, what if we were setup to pass? How about Job? I think your reading the Bible from the wrong prospective, but we're allowed? God allows that, but at some point it will end my friend, and don't get me wrong! I'm not judging, he might take you instead of me! He sees our hearts, he knows where we came from, where we are going and how we got to where we are today.

[Gail]

A person's faith is strengthened by going through tests. Even if one doesn't pass the test, there is something to be learned by the experience. Hopefully.

[M. T. Cross]

So why even put the tree there? Why even give us the curious nature that seeks to learn and know that he gave us?

These are the reasons I say that if the Bible is the truth - we were set up to fail. Everything is a test. Test after test after test. Pass a dozen but fail that many too.

Give us emotions, reason and logic, but we are not to use them when this almighty Gods plan reeks of absurdity.

As you have probably figured out by now, I certainly believe in a Divine consiousness/power/being. But I really can't see it as it is portrayed in the Bible. If that is the truth I sure don't want to spend an eternity with a being that plays that many head games.

[Pockey]

I always wonder about that...... why didn't he just wipe him out? He had to know the outcome of letting him live, so why was he so very willing to let so much horror come out of the situation?

I wondered too. Ellen White writes about this in Patriarchs and Prophets page 43:

Had he [satan] been immediately blotted out of existence, some would have served God from fear rather than from love. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would be the spirit of rebellion have been utterly eradicated. For the good of the entire universe through ceaseless ages, he must more fully developed his principles, that his charges against the divine government might be seen in their true light by all created beings, and that the justice and mercy of God and the immutability of His law might be forever placed beyond all question.

Satan's rebellion was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages—a perpetual testimony to the nature of sin and its terrible results. The working out of Satan's rule, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside the divine authority. It would testify that with the existence of God's government is bound up the well-being of all the creatures He has made. Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy beings, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin, and suffering its penalty.

[phkrause]

I wondered too. Ellen White writes about this in Patriarchs and Prophets page 43:

Had he [satan] been immediately blotted out of existence, some would have served God from fear rather than from love. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would be the spirit of rebellion have been utterly eradicated. For the good of the entire universe through ceaseless ages, he must more fully developed his principles, that his charges against the divine government might be seen in their true light by all created beings, and that the justice and mercy of God and the immutability of His law might be forever placed beyond all question.

Satan's rebellion was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages—a perpetual testimony to the nature of sin and its terrible results. The working out of Satan's rule, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside the divine authority. It would testify that with the existence of God's government is bound up the well-being of all the creatures He has made. Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy beings, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin, and suffering its penalty.

[Overaged]

He could have made us like robots indeed. That would seem unfair too wouldn't it?

Lets look at it this way though. We have children, and we set down rules for them. We generally enforce those rules more as they are younger and ease off a bit as they get older and develope their own world view. For me it would take an aweful lot of pure and total hatred and complete attempts to take me down and hurt everyone else in the family for me to deny any of my children a place in my home. Certainly not for disagreeing with me and questioning my "laws". I can not equate "my way or the highway" with love. I can not equate "look at my kindness, I have given you a choice. Either agree with and obey my rules or be cast out" with love, or with actually having a real choice.

An angel with a torch in one hand and a bucket in the other, according to an old legend, met a saint walking down the road. ‘What are the torch and the bucket for?” asked the saint.

“Well; the torch is to burn down the mansions in heaven,” answered the angel. “And, the bucket of water is to put out the flames of hell. Then we’ll find out who really loves God.”

If there were no future reward for the righteous, and no future punishment for the wicked, I wonder how many would still be a Christian?

To put it more clearly, what I am trying to say; I believe that Christianity is more than a “piece of pie in the sky by and by.” It is more than just some ethereal fire escape or religious fire insurance, so that you can avoid the big deep-fry. Why do I say this?

Because there is so much happiness resulting from communion with God and the saints even right here and now that it makes Christianity quite worthwhile to me.

Thats not saying everything is perfect or that I have answers to every question; but I agree with you in some respects too. I really dislike Evangelists of Punishment. They have painted a mortified picture of Christianity, that can paralyze even the strongest of minds, during times of discouragement or trial.

[Naomi]

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Because there is so much happiness resulting from communion with God and the saints even right here and now that it makes Christianity quite worthwhile to me.