Sometimes we are too eager to justify what we believe.

[barnz]

I know that I often find anything that helps explain why I believe what we believe. But this makes me prone to making a lot of mistakes. This is a good article to read here.

http://www.facebook.com/notes/andy-im/atrocious-hermeneutics-in-the-pulpit/10150809214998572

Atrocious Hermeneutics in the Pulpit

Yes, it's been pretty bad of late. Recently, there's been growing concern by many over the inaccurate interpretation of Scripture by various Adventist ministries and popular speakers. This isn't to say these blunders are done with the intent to mislead or that they will lead listeners towards damnation.

Nevertheless, something needs to be said because many sincere Adventists are modeling their interpretive techniques after such speakers, and this isn't a good thing. Let's keep in mind that incorrect interpretation, in part, led the Jews to reject Jesus, and at the end of time many sincere Christians may be led astray because of their failure to interpret prophecy accurately.

Moreover, these hermeneutical blunders aren't just taking place with "liberals," but I would argue it's just as rampant with conservatives.

As you'll see, objectionable interpretations are often made by the best of us. I'll point out a few of them now.

Hermeneutical Blunders

"Feeling it" doesn't necessarily mean anything. Just because you're in the "zone" when studying Scripture doesn't necessarily mean what's being revealed is absolute truth. I had one of my best, most intense Bible studies when I inadvertently drank a caffeinated beverage. The Bible study lasted until 3am, which was around the time I became suspicious of the "inspiration" I was feeling. I recognized that the source of my vibrancy wasn't from God! Likewise, just because you're having strong (dare I say, holy) feelings associated with your Bible study doesn't necessarily mean your interpretation is originating from God. It could be the figment of your imagination. Ellen White makes the point in this way. "Impressions alone are not a safe guide. . . The enemy often persuades men to believe that it is God who is guiding them, when in reality they are following only human impulse" (AA 287).

Common mistakes using Strong's Concordance. Many Bible students look up various words (i.e., sanctification, love, etc.) using their concordance and subconsciously place an equal sign between every instance that word is used in the Bible. Then they assume some obscure usage of the color "red" in the book of Genesis is somehow connected to the color "red" in the book of Revelation. This is a fatal error. Furthermore, just because it's the same English word in the Strong's Concordance doesn't mean it's the same Greek or Hebrew word used in the original. So, to make an interpretive connection when it's not even the same original word is a mistake! Finally, the KJV is not more original, or more accurate than the original manuscripts. It's a translation. So don't arbitrarily connect words in the KJV that aren't the same words in the original languages.

Just because it's truth, doesn't mean it's true. The health message, or one's more "Adventist" view on the nature of Christ, the nature of sin, etc. is not, I repeat, NOT found in every verse of Scripture. I've seen people weave the health message into verses that have nothing to do with the health message. Let the Scriptures speak for themselves (exegesis). Don't impose a meaning on Scripture that isn't there (eisegesis). Let the passages that deal explicitly with the health message speak to the issue of health. Let's not get mystical and allegorical in how we interpret Scripture. Don't go looking for truths you've discovered in the Spirit of Prophecy and make out that every verse of the Bible is stating that truth! That's just irresponsible.

How you feel about a biblical event or symbol isn't how the ancients would've felt it, necessarily. Don't read into Scripture how you as an American living in the 21st century would understand any given situation or symbol of the Bible. The very first step in interpreting Scripture accurately is to establish what a given book would have meant to its original audience. Keep in mind that Scripture is first and foremost composed of historical books that took place in real time with real people a very long time ago. If you do this, you'll avoid making huge imaginary leaps in interpretation. For example, doing this will dissuade you from thinking that references to "grasshoppers" in the minor prophets are helicopters in Iraq or Afghanistan; and that the "end times" spoken about in Hosea, Amos, and Zephaniah find their primary meaning in our "end time." Typically, in those books God is speaking to the near and approaching demise of Israel and Judah at the hands of the Assyrians and Babylonians, not the demise of the United States at the hands of the Muslims or the papacy! I'm not saying there isn't relevance to our day as spiritual Israel, but let's not jump ahead of ourselves.

Don't symbolize or allegorize everything. I've heard some allege that the 2nd and 4th commandments traditionally undermined by the papacy is somehow connected to rock music's emphasis upon the 2nd and 4th rhythms. That this is no mere coincidence, but actually something that can be extracted from Scripture. I don't think so. Let's make sure that the plain, obvious meaning of Scripture is what we stick to. Don't allow your imagination to do your thinking. If no one else can arrive at the same conclusions independently, then there's good reason to suspect that your interpretation is off. Seriously.

To Sum It Up

God is good. The misplaced interpretation of Scripture isn't necessarily sin. Nor does it imply we're lost. Nevertheless, it behooves us to correctly interpret Scripture and not read into the text meanings that don't exist!

Within the Seventh-day Adventist church there's been an explosion of nonsensical interpretations that are leading many astray. Many are searching out Scriptures to prove their own pet theories, and not allowing Scripture to speak for itself. This is one of the reasons for the current misunderstandings on topics such as the Trinity (Godhead), end-time prophecies, the feasts, etc. I haven't addressed all of the current, hermeneutical issues within the church, but I've pointed out some of the key ones. Hopefully we can continue to grow in this area.

May God help us, and may we be diligent and vigilant to understand the true meaning of Scripture.

I'll leave you with a challenge. "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim 2:15).

[Gibs]

alexamasan,

What is one of the "runaway" issues you would like to discuss? I've started a few here.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

alixamason, since you correctly said that many are now searching for themselves what to be the real truth of the matter, what do you use as YOUR own TEST to prove it's fact or fiction? The test I use is found in John 14:26 and 17:17-22. If the 'shoe' does not fit, then toss it away no matter how nice it looks.

Jesus was ONLY talking to His disciples that had been with Him thru out His ministry. The Holy Spirit can't cause anyone to remember anything unless they first heard the words directly from Jesus.

Jesus prayed for only those of 'us' who read those same words from His eyewitnesses ONLY, and who believe in those words and abide in them.

Do you find anything wrong with my "test"?

[ClubV12]

alexamasan says,

"Within the Seventh-day Adventist church there's been an explosion of nonsensical interpretations that are leading many astray."

We need look no further than this web site to see the many and varied views on doctrine and guidelines that professed Seventh-day Adventist put forth! Views around here that are more often than not directly opposed to official Seventh-day Adventist doctrine. Therefore, know and understand WHAT those official doctrines are before considering some "new" interpretation.

There are several tools at our disposal to check our interpretations and beliefs as to whether they are accurate or not.

1. I believe the Spirit of Prophecy is fundamental to a correct interpretation and understanding of scripture. Without it, we would be no different than any other of the hundreds of Christian denominations. Speaking as a Seventh-Day Adventist, if your views, beliefs, doctrines are not in harmony with the SOP, that in itself is a major red warning flag. You might want to consider joining another denomination, like Sceintology or whatever.

2. The counsel of the brethren. It will be up to you to decide WHO those brethren may be. The Hindu neighbor? The atheist down the block? That ex-Adventist guy you know? Someone that has removed their membership from the organized Church and yet says he is a Seventh-day Adventist? May I suggest that your counselors be men and women who are solidly in the Seventh-day Adventist Church and their views are consitent with the General Conference doctrines and views of said Church. Obviously this does not apply if your a Baptist, but the principle remains. If you want to know what Baptists believe, seek out counselors well established and supportive of that faith. Test all things, hold fast that which is good, leave the Church if you don't see light in it.

3. Scriptural and spiritual understanding is not revealed to one man (or woman). We NEED each other, to encourage, sustain, learn from, interpret and study with. As a poet once noted, "No man is an island unto himself".

4. Do use multiple versions of the bible in your study, ignore those that claim this or that version is no good. Compare scripture to scripture all through the "book". You might want to choose ONE that YOU prefer over another. Granted, there are some versions that warrant caution.

When someone claims that some biblical authors were not inspired and should not be considered as biblical authority, that person is not speaking to the law and the testimony. You can rest assured, there is no light in their counsel.

[barnz]

Whoah, I think there has been a misinterpretation of my post.

I did not write this article, however, I do think it brings up a lot of good points that many Christians find themselves trapped in. Do you agree that many of us, including ourselves perhaps, that we can fall victim to our own eagerness to justify ourselves?

Many of you have good points.

[ClubV12]

The article made some good points, there is a time to be zealous, stand fast and agitate, agitate, agitate for the truth.

There is a time to be quiet and teach nothing more than Christ and Him crucified, letting the Holy Spirit do the agitating.

[Gibs]

Remember, a lot of folk here are not SDA's and they are not all without valid opinions, remember BibleOnly when he was here, he gave you SDA's a run for your money. He was well versed in what he believed.

The only thing I didn't like was it got too heated at times. We are Christians are we not? Then cutting remarks at a person is not part of our come back.

Let's don't try to hurt the other person, Dr. Rich takes it well from some remarks made to him, let us be kind and show we have love and I know we do. We just need to count to "10" a lot of times.

Alexamasan has started a good thread here and let's work on a few.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gail]

I like a few of the points made, too! While I don't speak Hebrew, Greek, or Chaldean, I must depend on reference sources such as concordances and differing translations. I especially enjoy reading work of scholars who have studied the time periods of the Bible authors. Each bit adds to the whole.

And there have been times when I've been "in the zone" and had a Scripture speak right to my current need and afterward discovered a totally different (and probably more accurate) meaning according to exegesis. Those I might share but understand it for what it is. I don't feel that it discounts from my personal experience but adds to it. An example of this would be the "sacrifice of praise" verse. To me, it meant praising God and trusting Him for everything to come out right in spite of how I felt. I learned after this in studying the sanctuary that this is actually sanctuary language and that gave me a new perspective. But that doesn't take away from what I gained personally in a modern sense. It just means that we can't get dogmatic. God's teachings are bigger than we are. :)

[Dr. Rich]

ClubV12 wrote: "When someone claims that some biblical authors were not inspired and should not be considered as biblical authority, that person is not speaking to the law and the testimony. You can rest assured, there is no light in their counsel."

Since you wrote this as 'fact', please provide the proof for your mistaken assumptions. I have found you keep wanting people to believe in your assumptions and that shows, to me, that you intend to teach people things that are not necessarly the truth.

Jesus verified that the Law and the Prophets were true by teaching from them. John 14: 26 and 17:17-22 prove that ONLY the words given to us by those who the Holy Spirit caused them to remember Jesus' words first spoken, could cause people to believe the truth and abide in that truth.

2Tim. 3:15-16 was not written by an eyewitness. There was NO such thing as the bible we have today at that time. In fact, verse 15 is proof positive Paul was ONLY talking about the Law and the Prophets here.

What you believe can only be establish by blind faith. I find in impossible to debate facts with anyone who has established their belief by faith alone.

[Gail]

Remember, a lot of folk here are not SDA's and they are not all without valid opinions, remember BibleOnly when he was here, he gave you SDA's a run for your money. He was well versed in what he believed.

The only thing I didn't like was it got too heated at times. We are Christians are we not? Then cutting remarks at a person is not part of our come back.

Let's don't try to hurt the other person, Dr. Rich takes it well from some remarks made to him, let us be kind and show we have love and I know we do. We just need to count to "10" a lot of times.

Alexamasan has started a good thread here and let's work on a few.

Thanks, Brother Gibs! Well said on all points! :)

[ClubV12]

Have you seen BibleOnly's web site that he started shortly after leaving here? Actually he is quite active on the web and posts and joins forums a LOT. Such is the life of a "troll".

It is about as anti-Adventist as anything I've seen to date. He used what he learned here to tear down and attack every doctrine he could. I have little sympathy for him or the way he was treated. His true colors are revealed in his web site, his only mission here was to preach and teach error, there was never a spirit of learning anything that would change his views. Only learning from the inside to improve his aim for his attacks.

[Gibs]

ClubV12, Maybe he was sent to sharpen our swords.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gail]

Club, we can only expect more of this in the future... AND even worse from those who were formerly in our ranks.

Jesus told us to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. If they did it to Jesus and to the martyrs and to the Reformers, we can expect no less. Our part is to reflect His character and bear our witness. You never know what the Holy Spirit will do with seeds planted.

[Gail]

ClubV12, Maybe he was sent to sharpen our swords.

Hopefully we can learn from these experiences. Thanks again, Gibs!

[Gibs]

alexamasan,

I find the primary first one we must get right and keep right is the Salvation issue. This is the one Satan would work the hardest on with the most cunning of his deceptions to get instilled.

One don't have to get it from EGW although I know she laid that out right, but it is laid out just as clear in our Bibles.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Did you notice, not only into ALL truth, but also things to COME

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Have you seen BibleOnly's web site that he started shortly after leaving here? Actually he is quite active on the web and posts and joins forums a LOT. Such is the life of a "troll".

It is about as anti-Adventist as anything I've seen to date. He used what he learned here to tear down and attack every doctrine he could. I have little sympathy for him or the way he was treated. His true colors are revealed in his web site, his only mission here was to preach and teach error, there was never a spirit of learning anything that would change his views. Only learning from the inside to improve his aim for his attacks.

Hmmm? Speak about the one calling the other evil? Isn't this the same thing you do too ClubV12? What makes this your forum? I only tend to point out errors, as BibleONly attempted to do too.

What makes you think you know all about being an Adventist Club? I am MUCH older than you and have been thru Adventist schools all my life and am friend with many of the leaders. So to say that YOU KNOW more about being an Adventist here than anyone else, makes me sick!

You make these statements as though it was FACT--but they are NOT fact because you can't prove many of them! They, for the most part are all assumptions and if you were on the stand I would have your whole testimony thrown out as hearsay.

So, as Gail and others wrote, lets not jab each other. If you want to attack, then attack what was written--not the one who wrote it. If you think it is wrong, then prove it with evidence. If you can't prove it with evidence, then be nice like Woody and PK and just say you don't THINK that way.

[ClubV12]

Jesus said, "Let the dead bury their dead", sounds like He didn't show a lot of sympathy for some folks, but of course that is not the case when you see it in view of the Great Controversy.

He treated the Scribes, Pharisee's and those teaching error and didn't demonstrate a lot of patience and love in the process. Or,,, did He? What IS love?

Paul was pretty straight forward concerning the wolves who were to come into fold teaching error,,, Dr.Rich. And how to deal with them. He was also pretty straight forward about those who were to be removed from the fellowship of the Church, not to even eat with them! A shocking lack of compassion? Or a dedication and focus to the work at hand and will not be distracted by wasting his time on those who will not hear?

The Great Controversy isn't a garden party, it's a war. Jesus brought a sword, not a desert. First rule of war, know your enemy.

Dr.Rich says,

"I am MUCH older than you and have been thru Adventist schools all my life.."

Sadly I have come to view that as the "Adventist Curse". Your teachings are not in harmony with the Adventist Church, you openly preach and teach that which is fundamentally opposed to the Church! The curse is that all those years in Adventist schools haven't done a thing for your understanding or acceptance of Seventh-day Adventist doctrine. Age means nothing in relation to discovery of truth.

It is likely folks like Bibleonly will fare far better, and may yet see the light, than those blind, naked and in need of nothing professed Adventists who choose to fight against the Church foundations and doctrines. Who ever they might be....

[Gibs]

We are to justify what we believe with His Words of Truth. If one cannot do that then he is not justified in his belief. It is then found to be based then upon presumption and not Truth.

We must have the Truth and we must have it on every point, we must demand it for our selves and especially to teach others.

It is a grievious deed indeed to teach error. That is the Devils roll. Be careful we don't get on his side.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

ClubV12, Maybe he was sent to sharpen our swords.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I like that Gibs. Makes sense.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Have you seen BibleOnly's web site that he started shortly after leaving here? Actually he is quite active on the web and posts and joins forums a LOT. Such is the life of a "troll".

It is about as anti-Adventist as anything I've seen to date. He used what he learned here to tear down and attack every doctrine he could. I have little sympathy for him or the way he was treated. His true colors are revealed in his web site, his only mission here was to preach and teach error, there was never a spirit of learning anything that would change his views. Only learning from the inside to improve his aim for his attacks.

Hmmm? Speak about the one calling the other evil? Isn't this the same thing you do too ClubV12? What makes this your forum? I only tend to point out errors, as BibleONly attempted to do too.

What makes you think you know all about being an Adventist Club? I am MUCH older than you and have been thru Adventist schools all my life and am friend with many of the leaders. So to say that YOU KNOW more about being an Adventist here than anyone else, makes me sick!

You make these statements as though it was FACT--but they are NOT fact because you can't prove many of them! They, for the most part are all assumptions and if you were on the stand I would have your whole testimony thrown out as hearsay.

So, as Gail and others wrote, lets not jab each other. If you want to attack, then attack what was written--not the one who wrote it. If you think it is wrong, then prove it with evidence. If you can't prove it with evidence, then be nice like Woody and PK and just say you don't THINK that way.

Dr. Rich in this you speak much truth. However, some people can dish it with poison of the worst vipers but they cry fowl and want the poster banded by the moderators when the same is dished to them.

I won't mention names but what you said is relevant.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

**cluck**

[Naomi]

Club, we can only expect more of this in the future... AND even worse from those who were formerly in our ranks.

Jesus told us to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. If they did it to Jesus and to the martyrs and to the Reformers, we can expect no less. Our part is to reflect His character and bear our witness. You never know what the Holy Spirit will do with seeds planted.

Gail, I am quoting as this deserves to be repeated and remembered by all (highlights in blue). Thanks

[Dr. Rich]

Prior to this, I posted my own test that I found to be useful in the search for truth. Of course no one can be foreced, but I for one would really love to see the "tests" others use to determine truth and then to be able to back up that 'test' with postive evidence.

If I were teaching a class, the one rule I would have to avoid unnecessary arguments, is that everything said or written must be verified or validated by supporting evidence, or that statement would only be considered as a theroy or assumption.

Without anyone challenging the OLD held understandings, this world would still be considered flat.