Did Jesus truly experience conversion ---

[Woody]

as we should?

[Gibs]

Yes as we should be,

Lu 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.

Lu 2:47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

Lu 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Lu 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

Lu 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

Lu 2:51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

Lu 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[miz3]

No.

Jesus had no need to experience "conversion" as must we.

Jesus never ever was in a state of "unconversion". We humans are born "unconverted".

Jesus Christ was born with a pure heart. We humans are born with an impure heart.

[Woody]

Excellent insight miz3. I agree with you.

[Woody]

Well - we have one yes and one no.

Anyone else want to weigh in?

[Naomi]

I'll be the tie-breaker. I don't believe it was necessary for Jesus to experience conversion as we know conversion to be. Miz3 nailed it. However, as Gibs pointed out, Jesus did study to learn the teachings of His Father while in the Temple. As we should continue to study to show ourselves approved as much after conversion as prior to conversion.

[Woody]

Another one hits the nail on the head.

[miz3]

Let me be clear.

When a human becomes "converted" that does not mean the human knows everything. Humans continue to grow in their knowledge of God and His expectations. This is Biblical.

Quote:

I cannot prove this but it does appear that the "young Jesus Christ" although converted had things about His Father yet to learn.

Like I said I cannot prove it (Christ's level of knowledge about His Father) but that is my opinion. Maybe this is a product of an erroneous upbringing or something.

Maybe others have a better answer.

I can however prove that Jesus Christ was born with a "converted heart".

[miz3]

I'll be the tie-breaker. I don't believe it was necessary for Jesus to experience conversion as we know conversion to be. Miz3 nailed it. However, as Gibs pointed out, Jesus did study to learn the teachings of His Father while in the Temple. As we should continue to study to show ourselves approved as much after conversion as prior to conversion.

Thank you.

[Kevin H]

Exactly. Jesus did not have to turn from sin and trust in God, he just had to continue to choose to trust in God, thus no need for conversion.

[Gibs]

Jesus came to conversion when He realized He must be about His Father's business. He was like us all, He had reached the age of reasoning and from that time on we and He were held responsible for what we do.

The Bibles we have don't give much account of what His life was to that age but some other old writings do and it reveals He was a typical youngster. They do reveal He was much quicker of mind than any and even older people.

He came as one of us, born of a woman inheriting our tendencies and these He had to overcome the same as we do. But what so many will not come to see and understand is, He will impart to us His Divine Nature that we too may have His Power to overcome ALL as He did.

I know most of you hold to the "new age theology" and will refute this. Well have at it. Stop and think, why on earth did He come as one of us if it weren't to empower us to be overcomers, which He made it clear we must.

If He had of come to do it ALL for us then what need for Him to come at all. Don't you see there must be a death of self and all we are, "repentance" and a full surrender and our wills to be fully in His will and our love to be given with His Love and then we are born from above, a new creature with Him dwelling in us.

Yes man has to play a part, it's not works, it's surrender, falling and being broken and being a new creation of His Building, a Spiritual Member of His Spiritual Body.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[miz3]

Jesus came to conversion when He realized He must be about His Father's business. He was like us all, He had reached the age of reasoning and from that time on we and He were held responsible for what we do.

The Bibles we have don't give much account of what His life was to that age but some other old writings do and it reveals He was a typical youngster. They do reveal He was much quicker of mind than any and even older people.

He came as one of us, born of a woman inheriting our tendencies and these He had to overcome the same as we do. But what so many will not come to see and understand is, He will impart to us His Divine Nature that we too may have His Power to overcome ALL as He did.

I know most of you hold to the "new age theology" and will refute this. Well have at it. Stop and think, why on earth did He come as one of us if it weren't to empower us to be overcomers, which He made it clear we must.

If He had of come to do it ALL for us then what need for Him to come at all. Don't you see there must be a death of self and all we are, "repentance" and a full surrender and our wills to be fully in His will and our love to be given with His Love and then we are born from above, a new creature with Him dwelling in us.

Yes man has to play a part, it's not works, it's surrender, falling and being broken and being a new creation of His Building, a Spiritual Member of His Spiritual Body.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Two questions.

1. Does the Bible give us when the "age of accountability is? If not the Bible where does this concept come from?

2. Isn't "surrender, falling and being broken" actually something humans do and therefore it is a "works"? Isn't this still "salvation by works" since the human did something to get something?

[Plley]

Two questions.

1. Does the Bible give us when the "age of accountability is? If not the Bible where does this concept come from?

2. Isn't "surrender, falling and being broken" actually something humans do and therefore it is a "works"? Isn't this still "salvation by works" since the human did something to get something?

1/ Jesus came to Jerusalem at twelve, age of the "bar mitzvah", we canimagine it was because of it, in accordance to the jewish law. Why did Moses wrote this law, why only at twelve?

I think it's a kind of "age of accountability" in the Bible

2/ What do you mean by "work"? In that way, Isnt'it a kind of work also to trust in Jesus?

[skyblue888]

As a babe Jesus was born from above (molded by the Holy Spirit) from his mother's womb just as John the Baptist was. This shows that it is the privilege of every child born into this world to be born from above from his mother's womb, on account of the faith of his parents, provided it is of the right order.

And as long as this faith is maintained by the parents the blessing of God is upon the children thus born. But when the child attains the age of accountability he has reached the age where faith must be exercised to maintain this new birth experience. We must be converted daily. There is no such thing as "once converted, always converted." That would amount to saying "once saved always saved."

We must be converted daily by trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour.

If we do not resist the influence of the Holy Spirit, "We shall come in repentance and contrition with a despairing sense of our own finite weakness and learn that we must daily apply to the merits of the blood of Christ that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use." Faith & Works,86.

sky

[miz3]

Two questions.

1. Does the Bible give us when the "age of accountability is? If not the Bible where does this concept come from?

2. Isn't "surrender, falling and being broken" actually something humans do and therefore it is a "works"? Isn't this still "salvation by works" since the human did something to get something?

Please give Book, Chapter, and verse(s).

Yes, Plley, "trust" is also a "work". Anything a human does is "work" in the Salvation process.

[skyblue888]

The work of surrendering and the work of believing are the works of God. Jesus said to the Jews, "The work of God is that you believe." "Through Him we believe in God."

Surrendering is the emptying of self but no man can of himself empty himself of self. We can only consent for Christ to accomplish the work. So the work of surrendering and the work of believing are not our own works for without Him we can do nothing. But even these works that the grace of the Holy Spirit does in and through us do not play a part in the salvation of the soul or in merit. Only the merits of Christ will avail in our behalf and yet God will reward these good works as though they were our own and as though the merit was our own.

I believe the age of 12 is the age of accountability.

sky

[ClubV12]

Please give Book, Chapter, and verse(s).

Boy I get tired of hearing that, it's not a sincere request seeking knowledge or an answer to a question. It's a "your wrong and I'll prove it" attack on the character of anybody that disagrees with miz3.

Seventh-day Adventists have always looked at the entire bible for their doctrines and beliefs. Many of which cannot be sustained by a "book, chapter and verse" only. It takes BOOKS plural as in several books of the bible, many chapters and many verses to distinguish truth.

Asking, again and again, for "book, chapter, verse" often with a "PLEASE" is just another form of bullying, abuse and "in your face" comments to members on this forum. It is designed to intimidate and a setup for the attack on Ellen White and the Adventist Church that will inevitably follow.

Piley, mark my words, there is NO point in answering a miz3 question, it IS a trap. He, she, "it" will only lead you down a path of frustration and an endless round of apparently pious statements. Pious? Nothing could be father from the truth, sheeps clothing is all it is.

miz3 asks,

"Does the Bible give us when the "age of accountability is?"

Sincere or ridiculous question? Ridiculous of course and he knows it. Whatever you answer the response will be:

Book, chapter and verse,,,,, please. Which he knows you will not be able to provide. SNAP, you just stepped in the trap.

[Gibs]

Most all are forgetting something, why did Satan try to get Jesus to fall? He knew he had a chance that is why.

Now all don't reach the age of accountability at the same age, some advance much faster in understanding and some are very slow

The "new age theology" that man don't have anything to do is really predestination under a different cloak. Remember, all are called and few are chosen because all will not come and surrender of their own free will. Each of us have that choice to make, surrender and repent or continue on in sin as Satan as their master.

Each shows in time if Jesus is his master as he is an overcomer of his sining and the devil, a victorious subject of Jesus Christ. If not then Satan still is the master!

You see the devils believe and tremble but that is not salvation. Salvation is proven by the fact one overcomes his sinning. Only each can know that and decide that and in the end Jesus will let him know if he misjudged himself.

I don't care if you prefer to call it works, suit yourself, but for me I found it is not any work at all. It's like if your're hungry and have to decide if you will eat breakfast or not.

Same with coming to His Throne of Grace and surrender, repent and die of the old self and resolve to be a new creature born of Him. I was hungry and I got satisfied.

His Law became my law and desire and my will His will and now I am totally free within His Will. I have no desire for anything outside of His will.

Satan knew the score, he knew if he didn't get Jesus Christ the man to fall to him his days would be numbered and praise the Lord God my Saviour you were victorious over Satan taking no power but we can have to be overcomers. If He had of, how on earth could He expect us to overcome as He tells us we must. We can without a doubt, He made it very possible for every last one to do just that.

Paul gave you this and much more,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Here is the "secret" Paul calls it "mystery" to your overcoming power,

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

No.

Jesus had no need to experience "conversion" as must we.

Jesus never ever was in a state of "unconversion". We humans are born "unconverted".

Jesus Christ was born with a pure heart. We humans are born with an impure heart.

Yes Miz3, I totally agree with you. There could not be a speck of sin in Jesus nor of his blood or dna in him to make him a perfect unblemished lamb of God.

[miz3]

The work of surrendering and the work of believing are the works of God. Jesus said to the Jews, "The work of God is that you believe." "Through Him we believe in God."

Surrendering is the emptying of self but no man can of himself empty himself of self. We can only consent for Christ to accomplish the work. So the work of surrendering and the work of believing are not our own works for without Him we can do nothing. But even these works that the grace of the Holy Spirit does in and through us do not play a part in the salvation of the soul or in merit. Only the merits of Christ will avail in our behalf and yet God will reward these good works as though they were our own and as though the merit was our own.

I believe the age of 12 is the age of accountability.

sky

Thank you Sky.

Is the age twelve your opinion or is there a Bible text that leads us to this age?

[Gail]

Thank you Sky.

Is the age twelve your opinion or is there a Bible text that leads us to this age?

12 was the age that Jesus went to Jerusalem with his parents...

I think that in Jewish culture 13 was/is the traditional age. Anybody else know this?

[miz3]

Most all are forgetting something, why did Satan try to get Jesus to fall? He knew he had a chance that is why.

Now all don't reach the age of accountability at the same age, some advance much faster in understanding and some are very slow

The "new age theology" that man don't have anything to do is really predestination under a different cloak. Remember, all are called and few are chosen because all will not come and surrender of their own free will. Each of us have that choice to make, surrender and repent or continue on in sin as Satan as their master.

Each shows in time if Jesus is his master as he is an overcomer of his sining and the devil, a victorious subject of Jesus Christ. If not then Satan still is the master!

You see the devils believe and tremble but that is not salvation. Salvation is proven by the fact one overcomes his sinning. Only each can know that and decide that and in the end Jesus will let him know if he misjudged himself.

I don't care if you prefer to call it works, suit yourself, but for me I found it is not any work at all. It's like if your're hungry and have to decide if you will eat breakfast or not.

Same with coming to His Throne of Grace and surrender, repent and die of the old self and resolve to be a new creature born of Him. I was hungry and I got satisfied.

His Law became my law and desire and my will His will and now I am totally free within His Will. I have no desire for anything outside of His will.

Satan knew the score, he knew if he didn't get Jesus Christ the man to fall to him his days would be numbered and praise the Lord God my Saviour you were victorious over Satan taking no power but we can have to be overcomers. If He had of, how on earth could He expect us to overcome as He tells us we must. We can without a doubt, He made it very possible for every last one to do just that.

Paul gave you this and much more,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Here is the "secret" Paul calls it "mystery" to your overcoming power,

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs I an not going to get into a long wrangle over this. Suffice it to say that I don't agree. I don't agree mostly because of John 15:5 and Romans chapter nine among other texts I could cite.

In my view I see your way as the way of "works". If you are comfortable with that then so be it.

Second, I am mainly interested in where we get the "age of accountability". Does it come from the Bible, if so, then where in the Bible does it come from?

If not in the Bible then were do we get this idea of "age of accountability"? What source?

[Dr. Rich]

When I was a juvi officer in the PD I learned that age 12 was considered the age of accountibility but later I saw that they got this from the Jewish understanding.

[miz3]

12 was the age that Jesus went to Jerusalem with his parents...

I think that in Jewish culture 13 was/is the traditional age. Anybody else know this?

Do we then surmise that because Jesus went to Jerusalem at twelve that this is the "age of accountability".

Or

Do we take our cue from Jewish Culture on this "age of accountability".

I am very curious about this.

[miz3]

When I was a juvi officer in the PD I learned that age 12 was considered the age of accountibility but later I saw that they got this from the Jewish understanding.

So it is based on Jewish Culture and Jesus Christ being a good Jew would have taken this age to go to Jerusalem. That makes sense.

Unless someone else has other ideas?