The Human Will/Choice and its Dilemma.

[miz3]

How about being blameless because what ever I do is not my choice but because of what I am.

Even human laws in any country on the UN list won't make do with such excuses and simply jail anyone in offense.

Even if you didn't "choose" it but you were made "sinful" by God's Decree (see the Book of Romans where it states God decreed everyone sinful and worthy to suffer His Wrath even though the human had done nothing at all) you are still guilty and God will punish the guilty with death.

If God declares it, then it is so.

As Paul states in Romans chapter nine who are you, (the human), to say God is unfair. God can do as it pleases Him to do.

It pleased God to declare us guilty and worthy of God's Wrath because of His Declaration of our sinfulness.

Nothing unfair about it. We are God's Property. We humans are not "independent operators" (we are not our own property).

The Bible and the Bible only never anywhere says that humans are "independent operators". Humans are always depicted as being "dependent" on something.

There is no where in the Bible and the Bible only where it says that God created "independent operators".

Second you appeal to "human laws" (the UN, etc.) as if God like other humans are all equal.

1. Humans are not God's equal.

2. Human laws were made by flawed humans who in no way mimic a Holy Perfect God. Thus, appealing to human law does not cut it when talking about God and how God operates.

Do you think that God who is sinless and eternal (as opposed to human finiteness) mimics our sinful practices of law and justice? What a blasphemous comparison.

You make God as if God were just another human like you and me. God is God. Humans can not compare with God in any way shape or form. God declares Himself to be far above all human thinking and logic.

God does not operate the same way humans operate. Such human assertions are typical of the human entity. This is nothing more then "human-centric" philosophy.

Humans instead of wallowing in their sinful "human-centric" world, including interpreting God's Word, the Bible, in "human-centric" terms should pray for Guidance from the Holy Spirit to see God and His Word the Bible in God-Centric terms.

As long as you cling to "human-centric" interpretations and philosophy you will constantly be wrong in your views of God and God's Ways.

You will continue to view humans as "independent operators" functioning apart from the Almighty God. You will continue to view the human entity as the deciding force in the Salvation Process, when the FACT is that the Salvation Process is ALL GOD, and nothing human.

Those who believe in "free will", "free choice", "human independence", etc. believe that the human and not God is the deciding factor in the Salvation Process.

[Dr. Rich]

Miz3, I of course believe the writer of Romans to be a fraud or false apostle so using anything he wrote does not cut it with me. You can believe who you want to believe, but you might want to read what God told Israel in Deut. 30, as He gave them a free choice to choose life or to choose death--two roads my I suggest. No, God never forced anyone to make their choice as He gave humans totally free will. Therefore, you will not find anyplace in the OT or from the words of Jesus where God did anything other than allowed humans to make a free choice.

[miz3]

Miz3, I of course believe the writer of Romans to be a fraud or false apostle so using anything he wrote does not cut it with me. You can believe who you want to believe, but you might want to read what God told Israel in Deut. 30, as He gave them a free choice to choose life or to choose death--two roads my I suggest. No, God never forced anyone to make their choice as He gave humans totally free will. Therefore, you will not find anyplace in the OT or from the words of Jesus where God did anything other than allowed humans to make a free choice.

Thank you Dr. Rich. Deuteronomy chapter thirty is a common passage used by those who believe in "free will".

God was not giving them a choice but God was telling them what the consequences of the two types of lifestyles would bring. The Children of Israel could not on their best day "choose" God. The Children of Israel proved that time and time again.

As we see from History in the Bible the Children of Israel always "Rejected" God's Power to make them follow the "Good Path outlined in Deuteronomy chapter thirty". They always depended on their human power to do what ever they did. Such things led them to the Golden Calf experience, and wanting a human king, etc. etc. (the list is long). The consequences of "Rejecting God and Rejecting the Goodness that He alone puts within us to change our bent" is enormous.

John Chapter One says that God gives Light to every person. This makes God the initiator and the active Entity. The human in John chapter one is the passive entity. In addition, John chapter three and Hebrews chapter two tell us that even though God puts His Light (Power) in us to change us from "bad to good" that many "Reject" the Light (GOD).

Didn't Jesus Christ weep over Jerusalem (Children of Israel) because the Children of Israel had "Rejected" Him and His Light.

Thus, the human, in this particular case the Children of Israel, could not and did not "choose" God. Besides doesn't the OT say that God chose Israel, they did not "choose" Him (Deuteronomy 7:7)?

It is only the arrogance of our human sinfulness that causes us to think that we have the "power to choose" because that is what sin has done to us. It makes us believe we have power that does not exist. Sin makes us believe that we are the very center of everything, when in FACT God is the Center of Everything.

Yet the Bible tells us that we are in total slavery to sin and can do nothing unless God frees us and gives us His Power to do something. Thus, for us to do/be good (like producing "Good Fruit") we need God's Power, not human power (see John chapter 15).

The Way is Narrow the Bible says because their are "few which find this narrow way". The Narrow Way being that "humans are no longer the center (have free will, etc.)" but that God is the Center of Everything and the human is nothing and can do nothing because God does it all for us.

This is a hard Doctrine for humans to accept let alone learn to practice.

[Dr. Rich]

Yes, of course we branches would die if not for the vine feeding us. That's a given I suppose. But on the otherhand, we must choose to be fed by God rather than by Satan's evilness.

Miz3, then what would be the difference between an animal's free will verses a human?

[miz3]

Yes, of course we branches would die if not for the vine feeding us. That's a given I suppose. But on the otherhand, we must choose to be fed by God rather than by Satan's evilness.

Miz3, then what would be the difference between an animal's free will verses a human?

Where does it say in the Bible that we "choose to be attached to the vine". My reading of the Bible actually says just the opposite. It says that God grafts us humans into the vine.

Now if a branch (us humans) reject God's graft and the food fed to us by the Vine (God/Jesus Christ) then the Gardener (God the Father) cuts that branch (us humans) from the Vine and throws us into the fire.

Who said that animals have free will. Where is that written. Again the Bible says that the animals do what God has made them to do because that is what they are. The animals cannot do anything else but what is put in them by God just as humans cannot do anything but the Sin that God cursed us with because of Adam's sin.

[Raphael]

The entire humanity was not declared sinful arbitrarily by God. It was a condition passed down by Adam & Eve, our first parents. And yes by becoming sinners, the entire race of humanity should be doomed hopeless but the story changes because of the salvation plan that provided man with a CHOICE, whether to ACCEPT Christ has paid the debt of life or not.

Together with that choice, power was given as well through the Holy Spirit, moving & awakening the hearts of men, that's why its the ultimate taboo to sin against the Holy Spirit.

This twosome of choice & power avails the capacity to cry out for ultra superior aid that will assist us perform the journey, perhaps like some sort of cooling radiator that cools the machine to withstand terrific heat. The journey's purpose is to fill up the cross/pain meter that has a limit of not over-passing the Master our Christ. Sinners too have their meters to fill that's why God intentionally blesses & waters both the wheat & the tares for both to grow to its respective fullness.

This certainly does not apply to those who are too impulsively controlled that they almost don't have the capacity or are to weak to think.

[dialoguewithus]

God’s Conversion: A mythological saga of our Heavenly Father’s change of character, as told by theologians, ancient and modern

In Adam, all are dying, for the creation was subjected to vanity. 1 Cor. 15:22; Ro. 8:20. It was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation. Ro. 5:18. We were all constituted sinners through the disobedience of one man. Ro. 5:19. This collective perdition came through no choice of ours as individuals, but is our inheritance, our fate.

Nevertheless, so the story goes, there came a time when God, wanting to conform His doings to the highest ethical standards, set Himself upon a radically different course. Henceforth, He would not act arbitrarily, but only in accordance with the rights and sovereign choices of the individual; from then on He was to obtain permission from His creature before acting on his or her behalf. In contrast to the collective loss, salvation was to be an individual matter, and subject to obtaining cooperation from His subjects. No more “spiritual collectivism”; now God had enthusiastically embraced the “spiritual free market”. Our Heavenly Father was now, henceforth and officially, a “Gentleman”, and would no longer force anything upon anyone; He would subject His will that all mankind be saved to the whims of the very creation He had formerly confined under collective condemnation. 1 Tim. 2:1-6. The “plan of salvation” would consist of Christ offering salvation to all, and then being satisfied with whatever percentage He could manage to save. Isaiah 53. He would be honorifically titled “the Savior of all mankind”, but that would really amount to nothing more than wishful thinking, for He would especially (that is, only, as the story goes) save those who believe during this life. 1 Tim. 4:9-11.

Did God truly change His dealings with mankind? Does He really change? Of course not! Mal. 3:6; Heb. 1:12; 13:8; Jn. 14:9; 10:30. “For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.” 1 Cor. 15:22. “Even as… thus also…”- In similar fashion to the collective death, is the collective life! Romans 5:15- “But not as the offense, thus also the grace. For if, by the offense of the one, the many died, much rather the grace of God and the gratuity in grace, which is of the One Man, Jesus Christ, to the many superabounds.” Who are the many who died because of Adam’s offense? All mankind. And so, much rather, God’s gratuity in grace, through Christ’s perfect life and obedience to the death of the cross, SUPERABOUNDS to the many- all mankind! Does the salvation of some of those lost suggest a superabundance of grace? No! Does a collective, obligatory condemnation to sin and death, coupled with an individual, optional justification of life constitute a superabundance of grace? Not by a long shot! God subjected the creation to vanity in HOPE! Ro. 8:20. Did He hope that the entrance of sin would cause even one to be permanently lost? Of course not! Lk. 15:3-32.

Ro. 5:18, 19- “Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.” As it was through Adam (a collective condemnation), THUS ALSO it will be through Christ (a collective justification of life)! God promises a universal reconciliation. Col. 1:15-20; Phil. 2:5-11. He will draw all creation to Himself, using whatever loving means He has at His disposal, including judgments. Jn. 12:32; 1:9-13; 1 Cor. 3:10-15; Lk. 12:45-49. Our Heavenly Father will confer faith and repentance upon all, at the time He chooses. 2 Pt.3:9; Acts 5:31; 11:18; 17:31; 2 Tim. 2:25. Obviously, our stubborn will must be subdued, but take heart, for “Not stronger that He are we!” 1 Cor. 10:22; Is. 45:22, 23. Our unchanging God will be All in all! 1 Cor. 15:20-28.

[Raphael]

Preference is an unlikely option in the face of perceived circumstances upon Calvinistic Supralapsarianism-Infralapsarianism, Augustinianism and Pelagianism just to name a few ..with more 'isms' to come in the future..

When God is the plug & everything else relies on this plug for existence.. and yet He desires free will.. why.. couldn't a pretense satisfy Him of.. say predetermination of who fails & succeeds then later try working its details out or predestination of the entire thing & just give the surface impression that created humans can make there own choices, anyhoo who can audit God's inner works..?

Or God sought the ultimate challenge befitting His omnipotence of not only giving freewill to His creations but continual support of life-energy-food with its complex supporting environment from cellular to planetary to galactic to beyond dimensions..

Another illustration could be on parents bringing up their children.. parent could easily bend & enslave their offspring's mind & character and train them to be more obedient then dogs.. but does this Hollywood thriller likely to appear in life? Most parents drive their children to grow in their self knowledge & discovery and learn to make their own decisions.. Parents who run their children's adult lives are frowned upon by the civilized public..

Returning to the source of the question that is upon God works, which details are confined in mystery, leaving its principles alone bared for view.. returns to every individual upon what kind of God he prefers.. Islam views God as UNACCOUNTABLY MYSTERIOUSLY ARBITRARY, do Christians view their God in the same light?