I :Heart: My V#####

[Dr. Shane]

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WARNING: THIS IS BAD! PREFLOOD BEHAVIOR TYPE BAD! GET READY FOR JESUS TO COME TYPE BAD! CLICK THE BACK BUTTON IF YOU ARE EASILY OFFENDED.

2 Winona High students put free speech to the test

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More than 100 students have ordered T-shirts bearing "I <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sparkleheart.gif" alt="" /> My Vagina" for girls and "I Support Your Vagina" for boys.

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Notice the headline. Talk about a liberal bias!!!!!!!!!!!!! Free speech <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ???????????

What <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ?????????????

Did someone say "free speech"? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Are the cloads parting yet?

[Amelia]

Personally I dont see how wearing a button that says "I love my vagina" supports the fight of violence against women. I can, however, see how some young men could use that as an excuse to verbally sexually harrass a young woman. I believe these young ladies need to think about the issues and if this is really worth getting expelled from school over.

[Neil D]

So, Shane, what's the problem?

IOWs, what do you think "I My Vagina." means?

If you subsititute the word "hand" or "elbow" for vigina, does it become a benign thought? What is the problem for you to be so upset at this?

[Anthony!]

My my my, Shane... you certainly do have issues...

[Neil D]

Shane,

I am still waiting for answers to my questions...

What does it mean to you?

What makes "I My Vagina." uncomfortable for you? By your response, I would gather that you would not wear the t-shirt that said, "I Support Your Vagina"? Why? Why not?

[Dr. Shane]

Brother Neil, for someone that is offended by the oral favors that Monica gave to our former President, I am surprised that you didn't heed the warning and click the back button.

I do have issues. That is very true. I am very passionate about harm done to our children. Jesus said, [:"red"] "Whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.? [/] Jesus had some issues too.

I am also passionate about secularists that mock organized religion. Jesus said, [:"red"] "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrits, for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye niether go in yourselfs, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." [/] Sounds a lot like today's entertainment industry.

Isaiah, the gospel prophet, had some issues too. [:"blue"] Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter... Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts... for My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord" [/]

Let me comment on bitter and sweet. Sex as God made it is sweet and as the devil perverted it is bitter. "Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge." Hebrews 13:4

[Neil D]

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I am surprised that you didn't heed the warning and click the back button.

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I suppose I deserved that....but just for your information, when it comes to 'free speach', I am not easily offended.

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I am very passionate about harm done to our children.

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That's great...So, what is the harm that these kids are doing? Saying the word "vigina"??? I think that is very appropriate to say that word as opposed to other words for the same thing, which is concidered vulgar in some circles...

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I am also passionate about secularists that mock organized religion.

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Where is religion mock?? I didn't see that in the article...could you point that out?

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Isaiah, the gospel prophet, had some issues too. Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter... Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts... for My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord"

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I have no problem with what Isaiah was refering to....but what are you refering to when you bring up Isaiah? Good and evil? What is the good and what is the evil in this situation, Shane?

[:"blue"]"We can't really find out what is inappropriate about it," Rethlefsen, 18, said of the button she wears to raise awareness about women's issues. "I don't think banning things like that is appropriate." [/]

The concern seems to be over women's issues, not sex, Shane. And these are high school students who are nearing graduation, not 6th graders...Big difference in understanding in my estimatation... So again, what's the problem? Try to be a bit more specific...

[Dr. Shane]

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what's the problem?

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Sounds like a question from an uneducated man. Well, don't worry, you asked the right guy.

There are a few issues here so let's go through them one by one.

Freedom of Speech: Students in an acedemic setting have a limited freedom of speech.

In 1986, the Supreme Court held that the...public schools. The StarTribune knows this but wants to push the envelope instead of focus on the unacceptable behavior of the minor children. A school not only has the right to tell children what they can't wear (no caps in the hallway) but can tell them what they must wear (school uniforms) The StarTribune also knows that. So the StarTribune is misleading its readers by trying to make this a free-speech issue.

Teenage Sexuality: While the "I <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sparkleheart.gif" alt="" /> My Vagina" can be understood by intellectuals as a declaration against Freud's "penis envy", most teenage boys (and girls for that matter) will think the one wearing it either likes to masturbate or is premiscuese. The StarTribune's article wanted to dwell on the high standing these girls have and their academic accomplishments. Which is odd. Do the folks at the StarTribune think only dirty girls like to masturbate and sleep around? Intelligent and ambitious girls can be just as sexually premiscuese as the troublemakers.

65% of American teenagers have sex. This results are many babies being born out of wedlock and sentenced to a life in poverty. It also results in many STDs being transmitted. It also results in many broken hearts, suicides and bad marriages being formed. The results of teenage sex are rarely positive (of course there are exceptions). Any school (public or private) that takes measures which discourage teenage sexual activity should be applauded and not ridiculed.

Women's Issues: The third and final issue I see in this story is women's issues. This school is to be commended. They saw these girls got this silly idea from The Vagina Monolouge and decided to give the girls a way to channel their ambition in a positive direction. Allowing the girls a table to address women's issues should have solved the whole situation. Saddly the girls were not sastisfied with that which goes to show they had an agenda beyond simply women's issues.

Women's issues should be addressed in school. Young boys should be tought propper behavior toward their female counterparts. Not only taught that no means no but how to be a good husband and father. Many boys think of a woman like a sexual vending machine and continue to think that way well into marriage. Many need to be know how to treat a woman. Equally women need to be taught how to be a wife, a mother, how to treat a husband and what behavior is acceptable and unacceptable.

[Dr. Shane]

I'll make this quick as it is quite easy.

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what is the harm that these kids are doing?

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Encouraging sexual behavior. The t-shirts cause thoughts which freaquently result in behavior.

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Where is religion mock??

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Whenever sinful sex is condoned the relgions that believe it is wrong are being mocked.

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what are you refering to when you bring up Isaiah?

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The condoning of premarital sex.

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The concern seems to be over women's issues, not sex

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If that were true, giving the girls an avenue to address the issues would have solved it. It didn't.

[Bravus]

I can see your reasoning Shane, and partly agree: I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want my own teen daughter wearing such a shirt. But the statement's *intention* (as opposed to the unintended way you're interpreting it - which is nonetheless important because I agree that lots of people may well interpret it that way) was just a statement of pride in being female, using the characteristic that makes women female, and a statement against violence against women (which is definitely something we're against too, right?)

There's a double standard, of course: imagine the reaction to high school boys with 'I <3 My Penis' t-shirts...

But there's another double standard: we seem, as always, to be more exercised by sex or the intimation of it than by violence. Why not find a better way of supporting these girls, and their right to live lives free from violence? As you noted, that's about educating boys, and this particular approach seems not to be well adapted for that role.

But Christians need to get a whole lot more vocal and a whole lot more active in protecting the abused than we already are: and perhaps a bit less focused on sex.

[Neil D]

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If that were true, giving the girls an avenue to address the issues would have solved it. It didn't.

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Perhaps, but it seems to me that the issue that the adminstration is upset over is the word "vigina"....Are you worried over the word "viginia", Shane?

Well, how would you have handled this, Shane? Based upon the article, and the information given, what would you have done?

[Dr. Shane]

Brother Bravus:

As humans we have basic intincts. One is for security both emotional and physical. Another is social (to be accepted by others). Another is sexual . Don't let me forget the spiritual . Christians must focus on four basic intincts security, social, sexual and spiritual. And the Bible does as do all religions I am familiar with.

Christians use marriage to deal with the sexual instinct. Paul tells us it is better to marry than burn [in lust] and tells those of us that are married not to deny our spouses sexual relations.

[Dr. Shane]

Brother Neil, To an intellectual like you or me the word "vagina" means something different than to a teenager in the middle of puberty. You do remember puberty don't you? Were you contemplating the philosophy of Freund?

[Neil D]

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Brother Neil, To an intellectual like you or me the word "vagina" means something different than to a teenager in the middle of puberty. You do remember puberty don't you? Were you contemplating the philosophy of Freund?

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Well, first, I do remember my teen years...I don't know about you, but me and the guys I hung around with did NOT masterbate or have overwhelming desires to have sex with one of our girlfriends when we heard the word vigina or penis. Most of us were rather embarrassed over those words. And when I talk to my teens and young adult children, they don't do that either. So, based upon my experience, and those of my children, and those of my friends and thier children, I would say that your superimposing the idea that teenagers immediately go out to have sex when they see a button that says " I my vigina" is a bit unfounded and down right outrageous.

Second, I think that you mistrust these pre-adults when they use language to arrest the attention of other. Yes, 'viginia' is a word that does command attention. Any interaction in a social setting will result in discussion of violence in womens issues and any classroom discussions is definately going to cause more discussion/awareness and the real motive for the wearing of the buttons.

Third, these 'teens' as you call them who are starting this, are nearly ready to graduate from school. They have looked into womens issues and they have taken a stand. They want this issue of violence discussed. And quiet frankly, I think that since they are initiating this, it is a good thing.

My only concern is that the school should work with this episode and encourage discussion of the issues. To me, the article seemed to indicate a squelching of those student initiated issues of violence with women and more concern over reigning in the useage of the word 'vigina'. I would also add, that the school add a verbal abuse program to help in the proper social behavior between students as well as genders.

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To an intellectual like you or me

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Do me a favor, Shane. I know my capabilities, and I don't make claims of being an intellectual. Please don't classify me in the same catagory as you, in the future.

[Liz]

Well I am going to chime in here and give my two cents, both as a woman and a mother.

First off, if I saw a button that read "I love my vagina" it doesn't register "women's issues" with me. I would think that the women who promoted that could have come up with a better slogan. This button actually does make me think it has something more to do with "sex" than "women's issues".

If it were worn in my high school, it would have more to do with "sex" than anything else, but then I went to a very secular high school in a very small town.

Next thing, I wouldn't allow my kids to wear anything with this slogan on it, I don't care how old they are. Just because it has the proper name of the body part, doesn't make it right that it should be displayed. If you truly "loved your vagina" you should be modest about it. Which goes back to the point that this stupid slogan doesn't automatically make one think of women's issues.

And lastly, before anyone can accuse me of having issues, I will freely admit that I do. Which is one reason why I won't send my kids to a government run school, so they can be indoctrinated by this kind of dribble.

Like I said, just my two cents.

Liz

[Dr. Shane]

Well, Brother Neil, it seems you were raised in a very protected environment. I, of course was not. When I was 14 and 15 I was drinking whiskey and smoking pot. By the time I was 16 I had went through rehab and joined AA. In High School I hung out with "preps", as they were called then. We pretty much had four groups: jocks, preps, stoners and nerds. My friends were mostly preps and some nerds. We all thought and talked about sex. I suspect most of our stories were lies but we talked a lot. That was the 80s so maybe it was just a different era.

[Nicodema]

Context is everything.

[cricket]

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Brother Neil, To an intellectual like you or me the word "vagina" means something different than to a teenager in the middle of puberty. You do remember puberty don't you? Were you contemplating the philosophy of Freund?

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On an aside note, an intellectual wouldn't refer to Sigmund Freud as "Freund".

[Dr. Shane]

What about the bad typist <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />