why is our understanding of changed behavior important in conversion?

[Neil D]

Quote:

"Wherever there is such a view of Divine Love, as not called forth by the worthiness or goodness of men [or women], but as a bestowing of value on men [and women] by the very fact that they are loved by God, the work of Divine Forgiveness always appears as PRIOR to ethical regeneration, not dependent upon or proportioned to human repentance or any other conditions on man's side. It is this primacy of Divine Love which is the basis of the classic idea [Christus Victor] of the Atonement as God's own work."- Gustaf Aulen

thoughts?

[dialoguewithus]

Luke 6:32-35 is a wonderful example of char’is (thanks or grace)- grace is not given in response to human cooperation; grace brings about a response on the part of the recipient, but the grace saves, not the response. God saves us freely, for the gratuity in grace to all mankind superabounds! Romans 5:15.

[Gerr]

I agree with the primacy of love and grace, but how long will grace be extended without repentance and behavior change?

[dialoguewithus]

I believe that grace gives us faith and repentance.

Acts 5:31

This Inaugurator and Saviour, God exalts to His right hand, to give repentance to Israel and the pardon of sins.

Acts 11:18

Now, on hearing these things, they are quiet, and glorify God, saying, "Consequently, to the nations also God gives repentance unto life!"

2 Timothy 2:25

with meekness training those who are antagonizing, seeing whether God may be giving them repentance to come into a realization of the truth,

Eph. 1:4-6

according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight, in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will, for the laud of the glory of His grace, which graces us in the Beloved: 2 Thes. 2:13

Now we ought to be thanking God always concerning you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, seeing that God prefers you from the beginning for salvation, in holiness of the spirit and faith in the truth,

Ro. 9:11, 16, 18, 22, 23

… that the purpose of God may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling,

Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful.

Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening.

Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation, adapted for destruction, it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory

Acts 13:48

Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian.

Eph. 2:8-10

For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting. For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Phil. 1:29

for to you it is graciously granted, for Christ's sake, not only to be believing on Him, but to be suffering for His sake also

See also Ro. 10:20; Lk. 6:32-35; Ro. 4:4, 16; 5:15.

[rodgertutt]

I believe that grace gives us faith and repentance.

Acts 5:31

This Inaugurator and Saviour, God exalts to His right hand, to give repentance to Israel and the pardon of sins.

Acts 11:18

Now, on hearing these things, they are quiet, and glorify God, saying, "Consequently, to the nations also God gives repentance unto life!"

2 Timothy 2:25

with meekness training those who are antagonizing, seeing whether God may be giving them repentance to come into a realization of the truth,

Eph. 1:4-6

according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight, in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will, for the laud of the glory of His grace, which graces us in the Beloved: 2 Thes. 2:13

Now we ought to be thanking God always concerning you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, seeing that God prefers you from the beginning for salvation, in holiness of the spirit and faith in the truth,

Ro. 9:11, 16, 18, 22, 23

… that the purpose of God may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling,

Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful.

Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening.

Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation, adapted for destruction, it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory

Acts 13:48

Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian.

Eph. 2:8-10

For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting. For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Phil. 1:29

for to you it is graciously granted, for Christ's sake, not only to be believing on Him, but to be suffering for His sake also

See also Ro. 10:20; Lk. 6:32-35; Ro. 4:4, 16; 5:15.

I agree with the above.

Repentance and effectual saving faith is the RESULT not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like He did for Lydia, and Saul of Tarsus.

[Neil D]

I agree with the primacy of love and grace, but how long will grace be extended without repentance and behavior change?

IOWS, you are saying that a person who comes to Jesus [has explored Him enough to understand what a great Person He is, what He has done for us, and what He is doing for us and that he LOVES Him]... has not manifested repentance nor behavior changes?

May I suggest to you that you are not a very close observer of human behavior.....?

[Gerr]

Let's see, how long was Judas closely associated with Jesus?

How long was Lucifer God's covering cherub? Since when did knowledge guarantee behavior change?

[Neil D]

and how long was John, the apostle...Or John the Baptist...or the thief on the cross....or peter or james or paul or......

Gerry, it was a love relationship that kept these men going...

[Gerr]

and how long was John, the apostle...Or John the Baptist...or the thief on the cross....or peter or james or paul or......

Gerry, it was a love relationship that kept these men going...

My point is - when you love, there is no guarantee that that love will be returned in kind even when the other party KNOWS you love them. Your examples returned that love; my examples did not.

[Neil D]

My point is - when you love, there is no guarantee that that love will be returned in kind even when the other party KNOWS you love them. Your examples returned that love; my examples did not.

And are both parties involved more interested in maintaining the relationship or in returning love?

So why are you looking for a way to show that behavior controls the relationship? Because you know that that is not what controls the relationship....It's love..... and when it comes to God, doing stuff with Him is FAR more interesting than worrying over behavior.....

[Gerr]

Where did I ever say that behavior controls the relationship? I did say that you can not divorce behavior from relationships. Let me ask you again - how long will your relationship with your spouse (I'm assuming you're married) if your spouse keeps sneaking out with another person?

[olger]

Well, God is in the business of changing lives.

"If any many be in Christ he is a new creature..." (2 Cor. 5:17).