behavior is important in conversion, right?

[Neil D]

Quote:

"Wherever there is such a view of Divine Love, as not called forth by the worthiness or goodness of men [or women], but as a bestowing of value on men [and women] by the very fact that they are loved by God, the work of Divine Forgiveness always appears as PRIOR to ethical regeneration, not dependent upon or proportioned to human repentance or any other conditions on man's side. It is this primacy of Divine Love which is the basis of the classic idea [Christus Victor] of the Atonement as God's own work."- Gustaf Aulen

thoughts?

[Gibs]

"not dependent upon or proportioned to human repentance or any other conditions on man's side" ?

You need some scripture to base that statement. I find these verses below,

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Ac 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Re 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Yes the Lord God loves us dearly and would have all to repent that all could be forgiven and saved. But it will not be the case with the proud of heart who see their course not wrong and will not repent of their evil ways and doings.

So I ask, how can sin be forgiven without no repentance?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[dialoguewithus]

More on repentance

Acts 5:31

This Inaugurator and Saviour, God exalts to His right hand, to give repentance to Israel and the pardon of sins.

Acts 11:18

Now, on hearing these things, they are quiet, and glorify God, saying, "Consequently, to the nations also God gives repentance unto life!"

2 Timothy 2:25

with meekness training those who are antagonizing, seeing whether God may be giving them repentance to come into a realization of the truth,

[Neil D]

"not dependent upon or proportioned to human repentance or any other conditions on man's side" ?

You need some scripture to base that statement. I find these verses below,

[Gibs]

When we truly come to love Him as He first loved us we repent and are then forgiven and not until. You would have to twist pretty strong to have it appear otherwise and it just wouldn't be true. It is at repentance one asks for forgiveness and if it is sincere you are forgiven for sure but not until you ask and have sorrow for it. The Spirit of God draws all men at least until they have grieved Him away. When the Spirit has softened the hard heart we come and repent and acknowledge our sin and our helplessness. He then forgives and He then will strengthen all who will fully surrender all the He may dwell within. That indwelling is our only hope of glory.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[dialoguewithus]

Luke 6:32-35 is a wonderful example of char’is (thanks or grace)- grace is not given in response to human cooperation; grace brings about a response on the part of the recipient, but the grace saves, not the response. God saves us freely, for the gratuity in grace to all mankind superabounds! Romans 5:15.

1 Cor. 4:7: “…Now what have you which you did not obtain? Now if you obtained it also, why are you boasting as though not obtaining?”

[Guest]

Gibs, you had better go back and reread WHAT is " not dependent upon or proportioned to human repentance or any other conditions on man's side".

There ARE conditions. The conditions aren't what gets you to the destination, but they definitely have to be met before you can go.

Don't confuse conditions with works. The children of Israel had to paint the blood over the door post. That was a condition that had to be met. They didn't do anything to deserve being passed over by the angel of death, they only met the condition for that to happen. There have always been conditions.

[Gerr]

Behavior change is the result of grace and NOT the reason for it. But as I responded to your OP in another thread, how long will grace be extended without behavior change?

[whatisthis]

Philippians 1:6 is something I cling to. I don't know if I'm allowed to quote a certain person in this forum or not, but there's a wonderful quote that if it weren't written by a certain person would be worth repeating--and is anyway, "commit everything, great and small, to God. He does not become perplexed by the multiplicity of our grievances, nor overpowered by the weight of our burdens. His watchcare extends to every household, and encircles every individual; He is concerned in all our business and our sorrows. He marks every tear; He is touched with the feeling of our infirmities" My Life Today p. 292

I do know that it makes sense to me that He cares enough to get me through if I want Him to and cling to Him, and love Him more than life or light! How can He not help me! So let's not worry about how many times He can pick us up, let's just keep letting Him do it, and keep pressing for the mark of the high calling!

[rodgertutt]

Behavior change is the result of grace and NOT the reason for it. But as I responded to your OP in another thread, how long will grace be extended without behavior change?

Grace will CAUSE behavior change.

Saul of Tarsus is probably the best example.

Sooner or later I believe that everyone will come to realize that they started trusting in Jesus for their salvation and began choosing to live a righteous life ONLY because God laid hold on them by His saving grace and CAUSED them to prefer to live as He would want them to live.

[rodgertutt]

Matthew 11:23 is an example that whether or not we repent depends on God.

Sodom would have repented had the mighty works that Jesus did in Capernaum been done in Sodom.

The question of course arises, why didn’t God send someone into Sodom to do those mighty works that would have caused their repentance?

The answer is that God decides when He will grant repentance just like He did for Saul of Tarsus.

The URs perceive that as the truth, but annihilationist will probably not be able to believe that because they think their salvation depends on themselves.

[cheddar]

Matthew 11:23 is an example that whether or not we repent depends on God.

Sodom would have repented had the mighty works that Jesus did in Capernaum been done in Sodom.

The question of course arises, why didn’t God send someone into Sodom to do those mighty works that would have caused their repentance?

The answer is that God decides when He will grant repentance just like He did for Saul of Tarsus.

The URs perceive that as the truth, but annihilationist will probably not be able to believe that because they think their salvation depends on themselves.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Behavior change is the result of grace and NOT the reason for it. But as I responded to your OP in another thread, how long will grace be extended without behavior change?

Grace will CAUSE behavior change.

Saul of Tarsus is probably the best example.

Not always. Judas. Saul, the king. Shimei. Cain.

[Neil D]

There ARE conditions. The conditions aren't what gets you to the destination, but they definitely have to be met before you can go.

Don't confuse conditions with works. The children of Israel had to paint the blood over the door post. That was a condition that had to be met. They didn't do anything to deserve being passed over by the angel of death, they only met the condition for that to happen. There have always been conditions.

Read it again-

Wherever there is such a view of Divine Love, as not called forth by the worthiness or goodness of men [or women], but as a bestowing of value on men [and women] by the very fact that they are loved by God, the work of Divine Forgiveness always appears as PRIOR to ethical regeneration, not dependent upon or proportioned to human repentance or any other conditions on man's side. It is this primacy of Divine Love which is the basis of the classic idea [Christus Victor] of the Atonement as God's own work....

a couple of you have said that it is "grace" that is the cause of repentance...but what is grace but the forgiveness of sins....But grace is NOT the primacy mover to repentance....It is God bestowing value on the person that they are loved that allows the work of Divine Forgiveness BEFORE any ethical regenernation to happen.....

questions,....?

[rodgertutt]

Grace will CAUSE behavior change.

Saul of Tarsus is probably the best example.

[dialoguewithus]

"Everlasting destruction" would mean that they cease to exist. However, that terminology wasn't used by any of the prophets. I didn't make up universal reconciliation. It has strong Bible support.

Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?

The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).

And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.

How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).

It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteen chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.

The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a

It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20and many other texts that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

"Wherever there is such a view of Divine Love, as not called forth by the worthiness or goodness of men [or women], but as a bestowing of value on men [and women] by the very fact that they are loved by God, the work of Divine Forgiveness always appears as PRIOR to ethical regeneration, not dependent upon or proportioned to human repentance or any other conditions on man's side. It is this primacy of Divine Love which is the basis of the classic idea [Christus Victor] of the Atonement as God's own work."- Gustaf Aulen

thoughts?

Gustaf has some interesting.

The offer of salvation to the entire world - where Christ is the "atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world" 1John 2:2 - is an act of God independent of human will or goodness.

But the response to that offer of salvation - is very much dependent on faith, repentance, acceptance as we see in Romans 10 for with the heart man believes resulting in righteousness and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation.

As Christ said in Matt 23 "How I wanted to save your children BUT YOU would not".

and as we see in John 3 - Christ is the light that comes into the world - but the world "loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil" - thus they are "Judged already" according to the Gospel.

In Rev 3 "I stand at the door and knock" on the OUTSIDE - and if anyone on alone and on the INSIDE "hears my voice AND opens the door I WILL come in".

Only in Calvinism are all these Bible doctrine above "not needed".

in Christ,

Bob

[cheddar]

"Wherever there is such a view of Divine Love, as not called forth by the worthiness or goodness of men [or women], but as a bestowing of value on men [and women] by the very fact that they are loved by God, the work of Divine Forgiveness always appears as PRIOR to ethical regeneration, not dependent upon or proportioned to human repentance or any other conditions on man's side. It is this primacy of Divine Love which is the basis of the classic idea [Christus Victor] of the Atonement as God's own work."- Gustaf Aulen

I agree with this statement.

What I disagree with is that if we make repentance 100% the work of God then man is nothing more than a robot.

If we make repentance 100% the work of man then we are legalists and acting independently of God.

All things originate with God including repentance but man must make some type of response to it. The bible has labeled this response in many ways such as obedience, acceptance, faith, belief and others. I think faith is probably the closest to the truth.

[Gerr]

Grace will CAUSE behavior change.

Saul of Tarsus is probably the best example.

Quote:

Not always. Judas. Saul, the king. Shimei. Cain.

All of these men will be saved in due time.

God did not cause them to repent during this life time.

But they eventually will repent.

REDEMPTION IN TWO PARTS

Dead people cannot repent. They've had their chance.

"Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion." Heb 3:8

[Gerr]

The URs perceive that as the truth, but annihilationist will probably not be able to believe that because they think their salvation depends on themselves.

Nowhere can I find in my Bible that I can work my way into heaven; neither can I find in it that God will take anyone into heaven who do not want to be there.

[Neil D]

I agreed with those last two posts of yours, Gerry...