There is too much of this toxic attitude around here...

[SivartM]

Yes. An employer should be able to hire whomever he feels will best serve his business.

[Naomi]

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Gay people all have some problem that keeps them from working as well as anyone else can in a grocery store? What demanding skill does stocking shelves require that gay people could not meet? I asked this kind of question because there are people who actually would not hire a person to do a job for which they are perfectly qualified, simply because they are a member of a group that the manager does not like.

Gay people have various talents, people skills, etc. So do yellow, brown, white, black, red or green people. You used the grocery store stocker as an example.

A person may know how to read a plan-o-gram, know how to do sets or resets, and not have the strength to do this job for any reasonable length of time. Or they may not have the skills to interact in a positive manner with the customer.

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That is the very reason for anti-discrimination laws

I can agree with anti-discrimination laws to an extent. However, a business owner or manager knows the type of person that will be the best fit for a certain position. There are many factors to consider. Moreover, it is expensive to hire and train an employee. The hiring authority has an obligation to the other team members, their clients and themselves to make the best possible choice.

just sayin .........

[Woody]

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it should hardly be surprising

It's a chronic disease that I for one will not excuse. Personally - I declare war on it. You know. There's a war on drugs. My war is against racism. We all have to pick our battles.

[SivartM]

Anti-discrimination laws prevent someone from barring employment because of a demographic. That is all. If you have a qualified candidate and do not hire them because they are gay or black or Scientologist, that is discrimination and that is all the laws are about.

[Woody]

I would not refuse to hire someone because of what group they belong to. But I would refuse to hire them because of one of the many characteristics that that group brings to the business.

For instance - I would not hire a Christian or Adventist that proselytizes in the workplace. Neither would I hire a gay person that goes around declaring what he does in his bedroom.

[bonnie]

You have a very simplistic view on employment practices.

When my husband worked road construction on a federal job there were two minority employees. That was the quota they were forced by law to hire on this particular job.

The two did not work,on occasion they would make a attempt at busy work but nothing productive. Numerous times,not scheduled breaks they sat in their car smoking,one actually had his girlfriend with him. This company hired only the number of minorities required for federal guidelines and just wrote them in as an expense while bidding.Any other minority applying was quickly dismissed. The cost of termination and the following lawsuits are not worth it.

Not all minorities behave in this fashion but employers get a bit gun shy.

When I was employed at the Home Improvement Center there were many that were dismissed from consideration based on dress and attitude.A flamboyant gay would never have been considered,while we had many gays employed. Gays with a obvious chip on their shoulder would not have been considered either no matter how well they would have done their job. A couple of missteps in employment along these lines cost the company a needless headache and money.

Several great African-Americans were employed,it only took a couple to put the next African-American under very close scrutiny before they were employed.

Those coming in with excessive tattoos and piercings were never hired.Sloppy dress was also a factor.

A few of them were told to go home take the tackle box of their face and see if they could find a belt or pants that fit before applying again.

When someone is glossed over for employment or advancement it has a lot more to do with the person themselves and how they conduct themselves

[Woody]

Bonnie

[phkrause]

For instance - I would not hire a Christian or Adventist that proselytizes in the workplace. Neither would I hire a gay person that goes around declaring what he does in his bedroom.

Well Woody that's well and good, but I'm not sure how you'd be able to know that before you hired them! Do you think that they will tell this?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

For instance - I would not hire a Christian or Adventist that proselytizes in the workplace. Neither would I hire a gay person that goes around declaring what he does in his bedroom.

Well Woody that's well and good, but I'm not sure how you'd be able to know that before you hired them! Do you think that they will tell this?

You might be surprised at how transparent some are about this. They may not tell you but their mannerisms and words - speak volumes.

[bonnie]

Well Woody that's well and good, but I'm not sure how you'd be able to know that before you hired them! Do you think that they will tell this?

Employer's have a tendency to shy away from those causing potential problems.

When I was working we had a very diverse crew,many black americans and no problems whatsoever.Hardworking and got along well with everyone else.It took two black employee's to make the company look long and hard about hiring black americans.

It ended up costing a lot of trouble and money to settle the one termination.It was discrimination of course altho she was a lousy worker and took periodic naps in the bathroom.

This in turn caused the employer to look pretty discriminately at getting into that position again.Not because he hated minorities but because he didn't need the aggravation and cost associated with that

[phkrause]

Employer's have a tendency to shy away from those causing potential problems.

When I was working we had a very diverse crew,many black americans and no problems whatsoever.Hardworking and got along well with everyone else.It took two black employee's to make the company look long and hard about hiring black americans.

It ended up costing a lot of trouble and money to settle the one termination.It was discrimination of course altho she was a lousy worker and took periodic naps in the bathroom.

This in turn caused the employer to look pretty discriminately at getting into that position again.Not because he hated minorities but because he didn't need the aggravation and cost associated with that

But that's what I'm talking about. When these workers go to another employer, he has no idea that that's the way they are! So the next guy hires them to find out they are not good workers. So now you have to discriminate against whatever group based on just a few bad apples. My point being there's no way to tell.

[Woody]

Well pk. I stand by the employer for the right to decide with the use of his best judgment. HE is the one who is hiring. He should be able to hire whom he pleases. The government should butt out.

[Woody]

One example of this - is that the church discriminates as to whom they hire. Other wise you would have Catholic pastors in the SDA church. Think about it.

[Tom Wetmore]

We could dispute indefinitely whether bigotry exists or to what degree, or all manner of alternative explanations to apparent manifestations of intolerance. We have to recognize that this only feeds the real element of bigotry of denial and self-justification.

Rather, let's continue the conversation on this in a more constructive direction. Let's assume it is present and real and a serious problem. How does one rectify the problem of bigotry, in oneself, in ones friends and family, in society?

16 posts since I posted this. I have read them - twice. I was as if I never posted it.

Here is a thought. Bigotry is supported by ignorance. Seeking understanding can help overcome ignorance. Achieving understanding of others requires listening, really listening. That means paying attention to what others say, how they say it, why they say it. And then thinking before responding.

Again, assume bigotry is present and real. What do you do to solve that problem?

[Woody]

Quote:

What do you do to solve that problem?

I try to put myself in the other person's shoes as much as is possible.

[Tom Wetmore]

How do you do that? Are you talking about empathy?

[Woody]

People usually have reasons for their actions. Now we might disagree on how right or appropriate their actions are. But we can understand the pain that brought them there.

Understanding often times diffuses much of the anger. People want to be understood. So, If we can state that we understand what brought them to their belief or action - then much has been accomplished.

[phkrause]

Well pk. I stand by the employer for the right to decide with the use of his best judgment. HE is the one who is hiring. He should be able to hire whom he pleases. The government should butt out.

Not sure I can agree with that. I do agree that the government should stay out of many things. The reason that they get involved is not because they want to, but because of all the bad practice's that employers do. I worked for a guy that basically only hired minorities, mainly hispanics, its things like this that make people go to the authories to make sure stuff like this doesn't continue to happen.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Well pk. I stand by the employer for the right to decide with the use of his best judgment. HE is the one who is hiring. He should be able to hire whom he pleases. The government should butt out.

Not sure I can agree with that. I do agree that the government should stay out of many things. The reason that they get involved is not because they want to, but because of all the bad practice's that employers do. I worked for a guy that basically only hired minorities, mainly hispanics, its things like this that make people go to the authories to make sure stuff like this doesn't continue to happen.

I have yet to figure out what authority the government has over MY hiring decisions.

[bonnie]

But that's what I'm talking about. When these workers go to another employer, he has no idea that that's the way they are! So the next guy hires them to find out they are not good workers. So now you have to discriminate against whatever group based on just a few bad apples. My point being there's no way to tell.

If a reference is required that is not entirely true. While the previous employer has to be careful of what he says,when asked if they would re-employ the answer is simply no.

Otherwise you are right and so it goes.

If the laws were not abused then the next one that follows would not be denied to avoid problems.

As long as the potential lawsuits are what they are,any employer in his right mind is going to avoid what could potentially cause him a problem.

The problems of my employer were not created by racism,but by those perfectly willing to abuse the system.

I don't think the place I worked was unique or special in any sense but racial issues or bigotry was caused not by the majority of nasty whites nor by gays or latino's for the most part.It was caused by a very few racist white, gay activist types,racist blacks and lantinos.

It was interesting to watch. We had several gay employee's.Very well liked by most.They did however cloud up and rain all over those pushing their agenda at every opportunity,calling one of the most vocal "a freak" and to stay away from them. The worst dressing down of anyone I have seen was a 40 something black woman that took a young black man to task. Always and forever talking about how tough it was to be black and racial injustice.The woman informed him that No,she was not like him and she considered it to be an insult that he thought so.That was the milder portion of her little speech to him.

It was not race or minority status that made it difficult for some.

[Tom Wetmore]

People usually have reasons for their actions. Now we might disagree on how right or appropriate their actions are. But we can understand the pain that brought them there.

Understanding often times diffuses much of the anger. People want to be understood. So, If we can state that we understand what brought them to their belief or action - then much has been accomplished.

Now we are are on the right track...

[SivartM]

I think I said this earlier: bigotry is basically a form of pride. One sees themselves as above another. I think that we all need to remember that other people are, at large, basically like us.

There's a psychological term called projection; it's a phenomenon in which I project my own traits onto someone else. If I'm in an argument, I frame the other party as angry and belligerent, but I may be just as angry and belligerent as they are. I don't even realize I'm doing it. I'm projecting my own traits onto them. We all do it, all the time.

I think we need to be conscious of our behavior. If we looked at ourselves objectively, we would look and act pretty much like everyone else. We can't look at ourselves with complete objectivity, but it's important to try. It helps us to understand how much we are all alike.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

People usually have reasons for their actions. Now we might disagree on how right or appropriate their actions are. But we can understand the pain that brought them there.

Understanding often times diffuses much of the anger. People want to be understood. So, If we can state that we understand what brought them to their belief or action - then much has been accomplished.

Now we are are on the right track...

I think so.

This is why in the Martin/Zimmerman discussion I pleaded for people to share what we have in common regarding the tragedy. I shared but got no responses.

People enjoy the controversy more than the agreement.

[Dr. Rich]

Why call blacks Afro American? Personally, I think that is a silly thing to do, like calling someone an English American or German American or Spanish American or, will you get the picture. Look, if you are an American who the heck cares what color their skin is? Doing this is what starts racism.

[SivartM]

OFF TOPIC

Why call blacks Afro American? Personally, I think that is a silly thing to do, like calling someone an English American or German American or Spanish American or, will you get the picture. Look, if you are an American who the heck cares what color their skin is? Doing this is what starts racism.

As a sign of respect for their cultural heritage, which for many of them was essentially lost in the period of slavery. You can call black people black too; they won't bite. I use both terms.