$12 Billion of church funds are missing ----- What are U going to DO?

[Naomi]

Thanks Gordon....It is sad to me to see the opposite spirit exhibited as your biblical quote. I have been naive in the past thinking it was going to be different, getting drawn in, then experiancing a painful realization. I am becoming more cynical regarding the SDA church. In my book when an individual calls someones post nonsense it is akin to calling them stupid. I never have claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed, but then I did not get through graduate school by being a dummy either!

Monty, I am sadden to realize your discouragement but please do not become cynical regarding the church because one person made a statement which was hurtful to you. Perhaps this person made the statement without thought for how it would read to you ... but whatever the reason, we appreciate having you here and hope that you have good experiences

[Gordon1]

Yes Monty, we must realize that every earthly support will be cut off. This should be an early lesson for SDA novitiates. But angels that excel in power are called to the side of those who will not compromise. This great promise is for every man or woman who turns to follow Christ.

"And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

But to enjoy the favors & friendship of society should instill fear.

P.S. Woody's not usually so brusque, perhaps a bad scone day.

[monty]

Thanks Naoni and Gordon. I am not as fragile as I may sound. I hear cinnamon scones are delightful and have healing properties .

[Naomi]

[Gerr]

Has there been any effort to implement the Bible model?

Is there a mandate for having everything in common recorded in the NT? There is property ownership instructions in the OT with its built-in safeguards to prevent extreme poverty and exploitation.

[Gordon1]

Is there a mandate for having everything in common recorded in the NT? There is property ownership instructions in the OT with its built-in safeguards to prevent extreme poverty and exploitation.

Not quite sure what you mean Gerry. The supplied texts for Acts give some indication - could this be called a mandate?

It appears to be the leading of the Spirit poured out at Pentecost. Not bad credentials.

[miz3]

If you knew how little your pastor is paid - you would be handing out contributions to them personally instead of sending it to the church. This would not be a good thing. Disclosing tithe use is totally un-necessary. I would suggest that you personally lead the way and distribute your earnings statements and explain to us why you don't give more to the church.

I think we need transparency on all sides of this issue. The "privacy concept" that surrounds tithing (I would also include any and all offerings as well) allows for much manipulation and misuse of funds.

It should be public knowledge who pays a "faithful" tithe. It should also be public knowledge how every dime is used at every level.

It also should be that every local church congregation should be able to keep a certain percentage of their tithe for local use. This business of all the tithe going up to the hierarchy makes all the power and all the funds in the hands of a few "clergy" who have almost absolute use power over those funds.

The idea that we would talk in the "billions of dollars" in the first place tells us that an enormous amount of money is in the hands of a few elite "ordained" pastors who administrate the SDA Church .org's business.

These same elite "ordained males" know next to nothing or nothing at all about business and the proper use and/or the most effective use of these enormous sums of money. This is why the SDA Church .org is so inefficient in its fund usage.

Add to this the gross lack of accountability that is given to the "ordained few" by the pew sitters from who these enormous sums come from and this is why their is so much misuse of the "Lord's money" including many corrupt usages of the "Lord's sacred tithe money".

Then these elite ones tell the local churches that they will lend them this same tithe back to the pew sitters at a certain interest percentage to help with local needs. Such a practice is in my view obscene on several levels. I think the Bible stipulates that we should not charge interest when lending among God's People for one thing. Yet this is routinely practiced year after year in the SDA Church .org.

I don't think the God of Heaven is actually pleased with the way the SDA Church .org handles the whole business of tithing and offerings. It has become a very corrupt and unfair system. The privacy component is a major reason for the corruption and unfair usage that takes place.

I also think it is obscene for a Union Entity like the Gleaner to be crying about the "possible twelve billion" when this Union Conference mismanages the Atlantic Union College so that it has to close its doors. Why should they get more of "God's Sacred Tithe" when they cannot manage what they have now?

It is high time that we get honest about the Church and its system of which is miscalled "sacred money".

[monty]

This is a very good post! It sums it up quite nicely. If it was understood how much of this sacred money has been mishandled it would no doubt be shocking. I agree there should be transpaency all around. In my personal case I was once accused by the pastor of the church I belonged to of not paying a "full tithe". How much is enough for them? Isn't it enough for them to have at a glance the amount of your income based on the 10%? This kind of grasping could be described as greed, pure and simple. And since you are "ordained" you have special relationship with God, do not need to be accountable to the laity, and have special powers to manage monies. Any thoughtful person could see right through this.

[CoAspen]

I give monies to God, not the Church. If someone abuses the responsibility of the usage, they are accountable to God. Often accusations are made with out full knowledge of the details. The church is made of humans and so is the GC along with conferences. As members we do have a responsibility to hold leadership accountable but throwing around accusations is slanderous. We are not God.

For a pastor to say anyone is not paying a 'full tithe' would be presumptuous and out of line, because that assumes a full knowledge of that persons tax reporting. As a church and individuals our focus should be on the relationship with Christ and how to enhance that. Getting 'bogged' down into money issues distracts everyone.

In our church we have 'Joy Boxes' at the doors and people are encouraged to return to God as they are blessed. Offerings are mentioned from time to time by a reminder to look at the bulletin where the monthly budget funding is posted.

[Gordon1]

MIZ3 - "It should be public knowledge who pays a "faithful" tithe."

Not a fair principle because the individual is personally accountable to God. It's a matter of conscience, and worship. Others don't have a right to know our personal devotions. No inquisitions.

But corporate stewardship is a public affair.

There are several case studies of Adventist Stewardship:

• Fatal Accounts (2009) by former (i.e fired) chief of SDA World Church Auditing Services, David Dennis.

  (The Audacity of an Adventist Auditor's Quest for Transparency)

• Who Watches, Who Cares (2008) by Douglas Hackleman.

  (Misadventures in Stewardship)

• Truth Decay (2007) by retired SDA dentist Albert Koppel.

  (A call for Accountability & Transparency in the Adventist Church)

  (Truth Decay - Free online PDF)

All are published by Adventist Today.

Adventist Members for Church Accountability website:

http://www.advmca.org/

[monty]

I like that idea of "Joy Boxes". It keeps it a personal issue between you and God and you could give extra or according to how you believe God is impressing you. Perhaps that is an idea derived from Jewish custom. It is my understanding (I could be wrong) in the Jewish temple were boxes with a circular brass horn on top. As you put your money in the larger opening at the top the money wound it's way to the bottom and could be heard by others. Hence the observation by Jesus of the woman who was embarassed by puting in her two coins. No one should have to be embarassed by their giving. In keeping with the question which opened this topic I don't have a burden to help replace the "missing" 12 billion. Even though I live in the Gleaner's area of circulation. If the local levels balk at transparency what might higher levels believe if they are working under "the Highest earthly authority" and not accountable to anyone on earth. They certainly would not have to report income on their tax form such as I am required to do.

[Gerr]

Is there a mandate for having everything in common recorded in the NT? There is property ownership instructions in the OT with its built-in safeguards to prevent extreme poverty and exploitation.

Not quite sure what you mean Gerry. The supplied texts for Acts give some indication - could this be called a mandate?

It appears to be the leading of the Spirit poured out at Pentecost. Not bad credentials.

Just because the Jerusalem church did it doesn't mean it's mandated. If it was mandated, the other churches would have followed the same. There is no record that I know of where any of the other churches followed the same practice.

BTW, I don't recall that the Holy Spirit either endorsed it or rejected it. One thing I know for sure, the OT model was a divinely inspired practice.

[miz3]

I agree with Gerry Cabalo that the OT tithe was God mandated. However, unlike today all the Tithe went to the local Priest, his family, and the other local priests.

In the OT the tithe payers did not have to send "all their tithe" to Jerusalem to then be parceled out to other worship centers and other regional priests.

Our system today is only like the OT in that we mandate that it be ten percent. After that there is no similarity of practice in the SDA Church .org like the OT mandate.

Second, many here are saying, "I give my tithe and offerings to God and I don't worry after that".

That is all fine and good. Suppose someone thought they were also giving to God by allocating their tithe/offerings to the "local church school" instead of to the Conference? Isn't that giving to God also?

Or giving to a what they view as a God ordained ministry, such as 3ABN? Isn't that also giving to God to further His Work?

Why is it that only the Corporate SDA Church .org should get all the "tithe/offerings"? They are not the only God ordained work?

I think these are vital questions since the SDA Church .org does not follow the exact tithing system of the OT.

[Gordon1]

The tithe is for the direct support of Bible instructors. That's where the storehouse (treasure) resides - in the Word. Who qualifies? - Those who are bringing forth the Word of Life.

Other expenses are peripheral - to come from offerings, building funds, etc.

It's quite a tidy plan. Ten families support their minister whose income is an average of the group.

Imagine. One Bible worker per ten families.

And to think some people question Intelligent Design.

For those directed by OT principles we note that:

"No less than one third of their income was devoted to sacred and religious purposes." 3 Testimonies 395.

[miz3]

Within the SDA Church .org the Tithe money pays for the "secretaries" in the conference offices, the janitors in the conference offices, the lighting, the water, the building improvements, etc. etc. etc.

Back in the nineteen seventies the tithe was actually used to buy an airplane just for the President of that Conference. It was later sold by that same President who pocketed the money.

Also back in the nineteen eighties there was a scandal involving tithe funds that were invested and millions of dollars went down the drain when the investment was found fraudulent. There were many SDA Church .org leaders involved in this particular debacle from local conferences up to and including the GC.

So to the elite leaders of the SDA Church .org just how "sacred" is this tithe?

[Gordon1]

There are several case studies of Adventist Stewardship:

• Fatal Accounts (2009) by former (i.e fired) chief of SDA World Church Auditing Services, David Dennis.

  (The Audacity of an Adventist Auditor's Quest for Transparency)

• Who Watches, Who Cares (2008) by Douglas Hackleman.

  (Misadventures in Stewardship)

• Truth Decay (2007) by retired SDA dentist Albert Koppel.

  (A call for Accountability & Transparency in the Adventist Church)

  (Truth Decay - Free online PDF)

All are published by Adventist Today.

Adventist Members for Church Accountability website:

http://www.advmca.org/

Have just noticed that Fatal Accounts by David Dennis is now available as a free PDF download.

See the left menu: http://www.advmca.org

[phkrause]

I give monies to God, not the Church. If someone abuses the responsibility of the usage, they are accountable to God. Often accusations are made with out full knowledge of the details. The church is made of humans and so is the GC along with conferences. As members we do have a responsibility to hold leadership accountable but throwing around accusations is slanderous. We are not God.

For a pastor to say anyone is not paying a 'full tithe' would be presumptuous and out of line, because that assumes a full knowledge of that persons tax reporting. As a church and individuals our focus should be on the relationship with Christ and how to enhance that. Getting 'bogged' down into money issues distracts everyone.

In our church we have 'Joy Boxes' at the doors and people are encouraged to return to God as they are blessed. Offerings are mentioned from time to time by a reminder to look at the bulletin where the monthly budget funding is posted.