"Soul Sleep" - Looking for volunteers to join a discussion

[John317]

... A good place to get this practice is at www.ChristianForums.com -- in the General Theology section -- the largest Christian forum on the net, and millions of people from every denomination.

Are there a lot of SDAs on that forum? I'm already posting on quite a few different forums, mainly Face Book, which I've noticed you also post on sometimes. I used to post on TOPICS as well, but that place is crazy because there are virtually no rules. Personal attacks and name-calling are perfectly fine. The moderators on TOPICS actually require you to pay them $25.00 to check out a particular post!!! At least that is how it was about two years ago when I posted there.

[jasd]

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Quote:jasd

Perhaps interdimensional space-time?

>>Elijah said "you have to be a commandemnt keeper to get a ride and you broke all ten commandments at once".<<

Had me going for a coupla breaths. You get to be my age you slow down...

I’m sticking with “interdimensional space-time” – sounds more ripping – like, CTRL+Opera! – than wormhole. ;-)

[jasd]

>>1. "Vision" does not mean "not real". Christ was standing with Elijah and Moses talking to them – Christ was every bit as real as Moses and Elijah.<< [/ed.jasd]

Indeed, perhaps, Jesus Christ was even a bit more real.

As to the intimation “Christ was standing with Elijah and Moses talking to them” – St Paul saw a vision wherein a man from Macedonia spoke to him – asking him to come to Macedonia. Even when I dream, there is this or that person or persons talking – it’s still dreaming...

>>2. The text says that Elijah was taken into heaven by that chariot of fire.<<

The question then may obtain: “What/which heaven?” – first, second, third, or the heaven of heavens –and for what duration of time?

Should one think Elijah to have been taken to the heaven of Gd’s throne – it is invalidated by other texts, John 3:13 for example.

>>Doubters [...] and that Elijah was only taken high up into the sky and then set back down on earth. The text says they were mistaken.<<

Text only disagrees with the doubters should one take it to mean that Elijah was taken beyond the first heaven. Other texts invalidate that thought.

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Quote:Bob Ryan

In the book of Genesis we find that Enoch was translated - taken directly to heaven without seeing death.

Quote:jasd

We must be careful when stating that Elijah and Enoch were both taken to heaven.

>>On the contrary - text of 2Kings 2:11 is explicit on that point.<<

Again, 2 Kings is not explicit re which heaven it references, which may have only been the atmospheric heaven; however, the text bears a likeness to this one:

2 Kings 6:17 And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain [was] full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

leading one to suppose that a dimensional ‘heaven’ was seen... and mebbe, Elijah simply experienced a ‘displacement’, a ‘rapture’ if you will – somewhat like that experienced by Ezekiel (OT) and by Philip (NT).

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Jesus Christ said that no man hath ascended unless he first descended – thereby, precluding Elijah and Enoch having gone to that particular heaven

>>Jesus was not speaking of one whom God has taken to heaven. He is speaking of someone able to descend and ascend to heaven on their own. Only God has done that in humanity.<<

And we know that Jesus Christ was not speaking of one whom Gd had taken heaven – how?—what text(s)?

It is beyond reason to suppose that one living in OT tims had the ability to ascend and descend of their own accord – so, one asks, “Why would Jesus Christ even bother making such a statement as that recorded in John 3:13?-was He simply being superfluous?

Let me provide the NIV’s translation: "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man." (John 3:13 NIV)

Quite emphatic, yes? As many times as I read the words of Jesus Christ re the ascending and descending – I find that He spoke ‘inclusively’...; that is, no one had ascended except that he first descended, without exception. And unless one can make a case for Elijah having first descended from above – then Jesus Christ eliminated him from having ascended.

It remains that Elijah simply took an atmospheric flight, perhaps, as did Ezekiel and Philip - or one of the many who 'run to and fro' today...

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2 Chron 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying,...

The letter mentioned in 2 Chronicles 21 was a letter to the Judean King Jeraboam two years after having been taken up in the chariot.

First, let me amend: the letter was written approx ten years after having been taken in the chariot... rather than the two years I’d previously noted.

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Quote:Bob Ryan

The letter written by Elijah before being translated is sent to the Judean king Jehoram (Joram) (2Chron 2:21) in the south while Elijah is still on earth -- before being translated and before Johoram (Joram) in the North takes up his reign.

So Elijah was still alive in the Northern Kingdom at that time. This is why he only ministers to Jehoram via a letter.

There is a King Jehoram (Joram) of the Northern Kingdom (Israel) that begins to rule just after Elijah is taken to heaven and rules Israel in the north while the other king Jehoram (Joram)is still ruling the Southern Kingdom (Judea).

The guy in the Southern kingdom rules for only 8 years (2Chron 21;20) - and it is during his reign that the letter comes - but his reign started before Elijah was translated.

Extemporaneously..., Jehoram ruled for eight years – and Elijah’s letter was written ten years after he supposedly went to Gd’s throne. Fact is, Elijah would have had to remain until – practically – the demise of Jehoram, as the letter delineated the deficiencies of Jehoram and his reign – throughout. He would have had to write the letter from the throne of Gd – as some would have it.

>>Not the postal problem some have supposed.<<

Same postal problems remaining...

[jasd]

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Quote:Lysimachus

Also, concerning the "vision" in Matthew 17:19, jasb misses this point. He fails to go by the other interpretations:

Luke [...]

9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept [it] close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

Mark [...]

9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

So we see that Matthew's account is the only one that uses the word "vision". Luke and Mark say "seen".

Indeed, where the versions in Mark and Luke may be ambiguous as to meaning – Matthew’s was precisely excompassing.

“The Mark and Luke passages describe what was seen, but did not explain the manner by which they saw it.” Matthew 17:9 explained both what they saw – a vision – and how they saw it – a vision; somewhat as you’ve so aptly put it elsewhere, mareh and chazon...

Jesus Christ charged His disciples to tell no man what they had seen – labeling it – “the vision”.

Revelation 9:17 iterates it well: “And thus I saw the horses in the vision,...

>> The context of the passages clearly indicate that Moses and Elijah were literally present.<<

Yes, literally a spectacle seen in vision – sorta like, “I was shown, yes?”

I admit that I’m somewhat puzzled, as for one who champions the ‘spiritual aspect’ of so much of Writ – you seem awfully intent on making out the Transfiguration event a real-time literal event. :-(

[BobRyan]

Extemporaneously..., Jehoram ruled for eight years – and Elijah’s letter was written ten years after he supposedly went to Gd’s throne. Fact is, Elijah would have had to remain until – practically – the demise of Jehoram, as the letter delineated the deficiencies of Jehoram and his reign – throughout. He would have had to write the letter from the throne of Gd – as some would have it.

Nothing at all in the letter suggests that Elijah was on earth past the first few years of Jehoram's reign in the southern Kingdom.

The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

[Windsor]

The foundation of the world simply means at the beginning of the world. From the very beginning, God knew of this beast power and its followers that would not be in the book of life. The serpent and its seed were already cursed.

Protestants for centuries, and even SOP has been categorically clear that the "foundation of the world" means from the very beginning of the world. The benefits of Christ's death had to have already been in effect so that Adam and Even could not die. Otherwise, they would have been zapped on the spot. The plan of redemption was already put in place before the earth was created.

While Christ's death was legally in effect when man sinned, the physical transaction did not occur on the cross until 4,000 years later.

The death of Christ was immediately in effect the moment Adam and Eve sinned.

Why would Adam and Eve have to be zapped immediately but not Satan and his angels?

[jasd]

>>The point remains.<<

Okay, as you wish. However, what do you think of this fellow’s parsing of the text?—following:

“He was "translated" into heaven in a "chariot of fire" (2 Kings 2:11-13 ), but the point is that the biblical account of Elijah's departure from this life occurred in the reign of Jehoshaphat.

How do we know this? It's just a simple matter of "rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15 ). Ahaziah succeeded his father Ahab as king of Israel in the 17th year of Jehoshaphat's reign as king of Judah (1 Kings 22:51 ), but Ahaziah "did that which was evil in the sight of Yahweh" and paid with his life (1 Kings 22:52 ; 2 Kings 1:17 ). Jehoram the son of Ahab (not to be confused with Jehoram of Judah) succeeded his brother Ahaziah to the throne "in the eighteenth year of Jehoshaphat king of Judah" (2 Kings 3:1 ). However, the chapter before this, as noted above, reported

Elijah's "translation" in the "chariot of fire" (2:11 ), after which Elisha was recognized as chief of the prophets (v:15 ), a position for which Elijah had been told to anoint him (1 Kings 19:16 ).

That the writer of 2 Kings believed that Elijah was no longer on the scene in the latter stages of Jehoshaphat's reign is evident from 3:4-20 , which tells the story of Jehoram of Israel's attempt to form an alliance with Jehoshaphat against king Mesha of Moab. Jehoshaphat wanted the opinion of a "prophet of Yahweh" before agreeing to ally himself with Jehoram, so Elisha (not Elijah) was called in to render a judgment. If Elijah had still been on the scene at this time, surely he would have been consulted rather than Elisha, because, of all the prophets of Yahweh, none was more respected than Elijah. Besides that, Elijah's "translation" was clearly reported in the previous chapter.

It seems rather obvious, then, that the writer of this book thought that Elijah's "translation" had occurred during the lifetime of Jehoshaphat. Then when Jehoshaphat died, his son Jehoram became king of Judah in the "fifth year of Joram" (Jehoram) of Israel (2 Kings 8:16 ). The names are confusing, so the readers should keep in mind that there was a king Jehoram of Israel and a king Jehoram of Judah whose reigns overlapped. Suffice it to say that all of this information properly sorted will show that Elijah was "translated" during the reign of king Jehoshaphat...”

And a letter from Elijah reached Jehoram of Judah some years into his reign - giving one to ponder upon a heavenly postal system...

[BobRyan]

Nothing at all in the letter suggests that Elijah was on earth past the first few years of Jehoram's reign in the southern Kingdom.

The point remains.

[Kevin H]

Windsor: Right at the start of the sin problem Jesus began to bear the sin problem. God would not have zapped anyone, but the sinners would have cut themselves off from the only sourse of life.

Had God allowed Lucefer and those who joined with him to suffer the immediate consequenses of their choice it would have looked like God zapped them, and those living would have started to serve God out of fear instead of love, which would have been sin and would have sepperated them from the life giving righteousness by faith relationship that we need to survive. So God started to take on the sepperation himself and allowing death to fall on himself and thus redeeming the entire universe. All the angels and the beings on the other planets are saved not because they did not sin and did not eat of the tree of good and evil but through the relationship they developed because of the death of Jesus.

[Kevin H]

The Bible was not overly interested in chronology, and the letter could have been from Elijah before he assended, or it could have been from another prophet who was in the office that Elijah held, it would still be considered as representative of the role Elijah played and it did not have to be from Elijah himself.