How many tribulations?

[Gerr]

Our evangelical friends speak of THE Tribulation that they will be spared from with the rapture of the Church. Is this Tribulation the same as the "Time of Trouble" that Daniel speaks of that SDAs believe just before the Second Coming? And what is the "great tribulation" that Jesus spoke of in Mt 24:21?

[Haldog]

My understanding is that they come from the same scriptural references. The majority of christian religions believe there will be a tribulation but many (myself included) believe the rapture will be pre-tribulation. There are also those who believe there will be a mid-tribulation rapture and then there is the group which includes most SDA's that believe in a post-tribulation rapture. Depends on how your read the scriptures.

[Lysimachus]

My understanding is that they come from the same scriptural references. The majority of christian religions believe there will be a tribulation but many (myself included) believe the rapture will be pre-tribulation. There are also those who believe there will be a mid-tribulation rapture and then there is the group which includes most SDA's that believe in a post-tribulation rapture. Depends on how your read the scriptures.

Prophetic Toolchest for Dismantling the Dispensational Delusion (12 chapters, 550 pages) - Free online book, by D.S. Farris (click table of contents).

Mike Warren and D.S. Farris Audio Library:

http://hearingthetruth.org/programs/library.htm

The Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ (M3U Streaming Audio) (1 hour)

The Truth About Dispensational Futurism Parts 1 & 2 (M3U Streaming Audio) (2 hours)

[cheddar]

Quote:

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Dan.12:1

Quote:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Matt. 24:21-22

Sounds like the same thing to me and I definitely don’t see three versions of it. The only way to see three versions is to start off your pre-conceived ideas and then refuse to let the verses speak for themselves. Historicists are very good at that.

Also, Jesus spoke of the days being shortened. Shortened from what? There has to be a time period which is set for the time of trouble/great tribulation. In Dan. 12 the final times, time and a half is given as the last time period before all things are finished. And in Rev. 12 the woman (spiritual Israel) flees into the wilderness following Jesus’ command for the same times, time and a half.

Here we have the time of trouble set for three and half years and if those days are shortened then they could be three years or two and a half – nobody knows except for God. So the time periods were never given to predict the 2nd coming but to show the duration of major events in the last days.

[Samie]

Our evangelical friends speak of THE Tribulation that they will be spared from with the rapture of the Church. Is this Tribulation the same as the "Time of Trouble" that Daniel speaks of that SDAs believe just before the Second Coming? And what is the "great tribulation" that Jesus spoke of in Mt 24:21?

[skyblue888]

It is said that the "great multitude" will have come out of great tribulation. In the Word of God specific times of trouble and tribulation are spoken about and described. In Matt.24:21, Jesus said, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be." Then He declared that "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall got give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken." verse 29.

This, especially as borne out by The Great Controversy,306, clearly shows that the tribulation referred to here is the period of the dark ages, that terrible period covered by the 1260 days of prophecy. We have already seen that the great multitude does not come alone from this period of history. Therefore it cannot be to that tribulation we are being referred to in Revelation 7.

Then there is the great time of trouble or tribulation spoken by Daniel the prophet in Daniel 12:1: "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

This is that time when the believers will have to develop and perfect Christian characters when the rest of the world will have declared the law of God to be void. Those who do this will be the 144,000, and not the great multitude. Therefore it is neither of these periods of tribulation to which we are referred to in Revelation 7. This leaves us with the question as to which is being referred to, and the answer is quite simple.

The great tribulation from Heaven's point of view and from the point of view of eternity emcompasses the whole of the period of the great controversy. Before this trouble started there was peace and harmony in Heaven, and no tribulation at all. But since the beginning of the controversy there has been nothing but tribulation. Even the most peaceful and prosperous periods of the church have been times of tribulation. If it were not so, then the devil must have had times when he left the church alone and unpersecuted. This, we know he never did.

The great tribulation, in the full sense of the term, has been something like 6,000 years long, and it is out of that period that the great multitude will come as the great harvest of the ages, the fruition of the work of Jesus Christ in giving His life as a ransom for many.

sky

[Lysimachus]

Daniel 12: (1)And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. "

Notice that the immediate thing that transpires right after the Time of Trouble is the resurrection of the dead.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:29, 30)

Christ was more specifically referring here to the Great Tribulation during the 1260 years of the Papacy. The sequence of events is different. You have the resurrection of the dead right after the "Time of Trouble", and then immediately after you have them shining as the "stars forever and ever".

Revelation 13 does not place the 42 months in this sequence.

Notice the sequence:

Revelation 13:

13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.

13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.

Thus we see the following in Revelation 13:

1. The First Beast

2. The Time element of this Beast's persecution

3. Another beast arising and enforcing everything of the first beast.

4. The Mark of the Beast.

Daniel places the resurrection of the dead in Daniel 12 immediately after the time of trouble.

Hardly enough time for the Lamb-Like Beast to arise.

To state that Jesus' words in Matthew had only one application concerning the great tribulation of the saints is an irresponsible, grotesque, monstrous treating of God's Word.

We know these words to be true, for in Revelation, the SAME Jesus came back to John and FILLED IN, the elaborate details of what Christ veiled from all those disciples who had already passed away. John was the last one alive, and the last to receive this great privilege of seeing yet two more phases to a future great tribulation.

First Phase: 1. Great Tribulation of 1260 years--Beast persecutes saints.

Deadly Wound: Persecution halted.

Deadly Wound healed: Persecution resumes.

Second Phase: 2. Great Tribulation resumes for a short time, which will involve the Lamb Like Beast.

[Samie]

The great tribulation of Matt 24:21, until its occurrence, has not occurred in the past, nor will ever again occur.

Quote:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Believers in the words of Christ, therefore, has no other recourse but to believe this great tribulation is a one-time event.

The occurrence of the great tribulation of Matt 24:21 has to be shortened or no one will remain alive, annihilated by the great tribulation:

Quote:

NIV Matthew 24:22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Believers in the words of Christ, therefore, has no other recourse but to believe the elect alive when this great tribulation starts are still alive when this tribulation ends. Therefore it can not be 1260 years long.

Immediately after the great tribulation, unusual celestial phenomena occurs: solar and lunar eclipse occurring on the same day!

Quote:

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Why unusual? Because at daytime it is solar eclipse; by nighttime, it is lunar eclipse. Solar eclipse can only occur on a new moon; lunar eclipse only when it is full moon. Unless unusual, solar and lunar eclipse cannot occur on the same day. That same night, the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, capped by the 2nd Coming:

Quote:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Based on the above, believers in the words of Christ have no other recourse but to believe the great tribulation of Matt 24:21 is yet to occur in the future, shortly before the 2nd Coming!

[Samie]

...

To state that Jesus' words in Matthew had only one application concerning the great tribulation of the saints is an irresponsible, grotesque, monstrous treating of God's Word.

[Lysimachus]

And your adding TWO more occurrences of the great tribulation is not "irresponsible, grotesque, monstrous treating of God's Word"?

[Gibs]

There is many pages to part one of the great time of trouble from this same book prior to these few paragraphs I paste here, and many more follow these few I paste.

Quote, EGW,

(The Great Time of Trouble, Part 2)

The Great Time of Trouble

Begins After Probation's Close

When Christ shall cease His work as mediator in man's behalf, then this time of trouble will begin. Then the case of every soul will have been decided, and there will be no atoning blood to cleanse from sin. When Jesus leaves His position as man's intercessor before God the solemn announcement is made, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still" (Revelation 22:11). Then the restraining Spirit of God is withdrawn from the earth.--PP 201 (1890). {LDE 253.1}

God's People Are Prepared

for the Trying Hour Before Them

When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth.

254

The people of God have accomplished their work. They have received "the latter rain," "the refreshing from the presence of the Lord," and they are prepared for the trying hour before them. {LDE 253.2}

Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received "the seal of the living God." Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. . . . Christ has made the atonement for His people, and blotted out their sins. The number of His subjects is made up; "the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven," is about to be given to the heirs of salvation, and Jesus is to reign as King of kings, and Lord of lords.--GC 613, 614 (1911). {LDE 254.1}

Terrible Beyond Comprehension

The season of distress and anguish before us will require a faith that can endure weariness, delay, and hunger--a faith that will not faint, though severely tried. . . . {LDE 254.2}

The "time of trouble such as never was," is soon to open upon us; and we shall need an experience which we do not now possess, and which many are too indolent to obtain. It is often the case that trouble is greater in anticipation than in reality; but this is not true of the crisis before us. The most vivid presentation cannot reach the magnitude of the ordeal.--GC 621, 622 (1911). {LDE 254.3}

When Jesus leaves the most holy His restraining Spirit is withdrawn from rulers and people. They are left to the control of evil angels. Then such laws will be made by the counsel and direction of Satan that, unless time should be very short, no flesh could be saved.--1T 204 (1859). {LDE 255.1}

Many Laid to Rest Before Time of Trouble

It is not always safe to ask for unconditional healing. . . . He knows whether or not those for whom petitions are offered would be able to endure the trial and test that would come upon them if they lived. He knows the end from the beginning. Many will be laid away to sleep before the fiery ordeal of the time of trouble shall come upon our world.--CH 375 (1897). {LDE 255.2}

The Lord has often instructed me that many little ones are to be laid away before the time of trouble. We shall see our children again. We shall meet them and know them in the heavenly courts.--2SM 259 (1899). {LDE 255.3}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

And your adding TWO more occurrences of the great tribulation is not "irresponsible, grotesque, monstrous treating of God's Word"?

Nope. Not at all, whatsoever. Revelation 13, and scripture with scripture perspicaciously demonstrate this irrefutable truth.