Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would you vote???

[bevin]

Poll time - let us see how theory and practise stack up...

[Clio]

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This is about as clear a situation as you'll find. He's right, if we can't act now, there's no way of telling where this ends.

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Where is your faith? Are not Abba Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit capable of protecting and shielding the entire situation? Of making ALL work together for good for those who love Them?

Where is the "Go and sin no more" attitude of Jesus?

This is a man-made solution, and thus filled with sorrow for all concerned.

This seems to be another instance where there is no point in the debate currently raging. It seems to be another case where we are losing focus on Jesus and focusing instead on someone else's falling short of the mark... guaranteed to blur our vision when looking at Jesus.

It doesn't matter which mark you are looking at, the mark the young lady missed, the mark the church missed, or the mark missed here.... we are still looking at sin...a missed mark.... instead of at Jesus, our Prize, our Salvation.

[there buster]

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Where is your faith? Are not Abba Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit capable of protecting and shielding the entire situation? Of making ALL work together for good for those who love Them?

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People are quite free about questioning other's faith, motives, and Christian experience around here. That is a presumption I am not willing to make.

My faith, since you ask, is that if I trust in God, and act on that trust by doing what I believe I am required (by God) to do, that He will make all things work together for good, even for the teacher.

But the text says all things "work together" for good, not that all things ARE good. So this unpleasant experience for the teacher(and everyone else) may work out for her good in the long run. I have faith that that is true. That's what faith actually is: trusting even when it doesn't look promising.

The rest of your post sounds very soothing, but seems void of substance.

[Clio]

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The rest of your post sounds very soothing, but seems void of substance.

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It is void of substance to focus on Jesus instead of focusing on missing the mark?

[Ron Lambert]

Nicodema said:

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"Ron, we have 2,000 years of church history putting your punitive model into practice and making a royal oppressive mess of things. No one has yet tried Jesus' way -- where we recognize that we as sinners have no place to 'cast a stone' at someone else for his or her sin and where we get out of the way and permit Jesus to do the rebuking and chastening."

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This statement betrays such an extreme ignorance of history and of human nature, and such a profound lack of ability to draw forth a sound exegetical understanding of what the Bible really says, that I doubt that any further meaningful discussion can take place between us. But I will try.

Perhaps we should open up the doors of our prisons and say, "We do not condemn you, go and sin no more." Then we can turn loose all those serial rapists and killers and other violent felons back onto the streets, and trust that Jesus will somehow make them repent, make them be converted, make them stop sinning. And of course we can just disband all of our police departments, since they will no longer be needed.

What happened in the history of the Jewish people? For hundreds of years, they practiced toleration, refrained from imposing punitive sanctions, and allowed people to bring in idols and Baal-worship, and combine it with the religion of Israel (after all, "Baal" just means "Lord," they could say) The result was that Israel and Judah went further and further into apostasy. The prophet Elijah was led by God to oppose forcefully the idolatry and Baal-worship in Israel, where he had hundreds of the priests of Baal killed, and prophesied against King Ahab and Queen Jezebel that they would soon meet a violent end. These extreme measures did work, they did turn Israel back to faithfulness for a time, until a few generations later Israel had more kings who compromised with evil and refused to apply any punitive measures to restrain the sins of idolatry and Baal-worhsip. Finally Israel became so emboldened in its "liberal" notions of tolerance and "forgiveness" that the whole nation went so far in apostasy that God had to allow the nation to come to an end, and all that was left was the kingdom of Judah. But the same history took place there, until finally God had to withdraw His protection and allowed the nation to be conquered with great loss of life, and the people to be carried away captive for 70 years.

And guess what--THIS WORKED! Finally the Jewish people were cured of idolatry and Baal-worship, right when they had gone to the very edge of ceasing to be the chosen people. You never read in the New Testament where the Jewish people had any further inclination toward idolatry or Baal-worship. That was not the end of their sin, of course. They (or at least the leadership) did reject Jesus. But they did finally get over the sins of idolatry and Baal-worship.

In the Christian age, what is always tried most commonly is not taking any action against sinners. Tolerance, forgiveness, offering no forceful resistance to the sins various people cherish, is the very easiest thing for sinful human nature to do. Paul had to admonish the church: "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" But the spirit of tolerance of sin and failing to resist actively the sins of paganism is what created the papacy and led to the Inquisition. How interesting that the spirit of toleration and forgiveness and inclusion toward the people who were still pagan at heart led ultimately to the creation of the most persecuting institution in the history of man!

If time were to go on long enough, perhaps something like the papacy would be re-created in the Adventist Church. But here is the shocker: It would not be created by the conservatives alone, but just as much (and with equal enthusiasm) by the liberals!

Does that seem counter-intuitive? Then think how it is the liberals in modern society who are the most dictatorial, with their notions of "political correctness" that do more to inhibit free speech than all the formalism of the conservatives. And look in this forum. Who is the first to engage in name-calling and hatespeech, in casting aspersion upon character, in imputing the most reprehensible of motives to opponents in debate? Is it not those who argue from a liberal viewpoint, those who profess to be championing "tolerance" and "compassion"?

It is easy for liberals to condemn someone as a Pharisee. But Pharisees were not the only villains in the New Testament. The Sadduccees were the "liberals" in Christ's time, and they also had a hand in the rejection and crucifixion of Christ.

Being a "liberal" or a "conservative" are both sins that need to be repented of. Both extremes of viewpoint will only lead us astray, making it harder for us to comprehend sound Bible truth, because our minds are closed against receiving real light.

[Bravus]

Can I just ask that bevin and Bob summarise the results of their polls in this thread in a few days? If someone chooses not to vote they can't see the results (can they?) Thanx. Good questions, both of you.

[Clio]

Stan -

Those who are placed in a position of spiritual authority are held to a higher standard by Abba Father. James 3:1 is quite clear on that.

But having said that... I'm not sure what I would think faced with the possibility of disciplining one in a Pastoral role.

I think that the qualifications of an Elder in 1 Timothy 3:2-7 would apply in this regard.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, *not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. NKJV

Since the same instructions except for the one about being a novice, apply to deacons, but are not applied to school teachers... it seems that there is room for leniency in one area but not in the other. I wish I felt better about that statement... it could be argued that since she taught in a Christian School there is the element of spiritual authority. But truly, do we hold school teachers to have the same spiritual authority as we do Pastors, Elders, and Deacons?

The application of teachers being held to a higher standard seems to be to those who teach the Gospel, that it not be corrupted, which Paul is explicit about to Timothy in 1 Timothy 1:2-11

remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

(emphasis mine) :2cents:

It seems to me, that Paul continues to exhort and goes to great lengths to ensure that what is taught is the Gospel of a risen Jesus, who came to save, not to condemn, and the importance of a love relationship with Him. Without that love relationship all becomes subject to dispute and interpretation of the law as doctrine....

It doesn't really answer your question I know...but what a sad and horrible choice you pose.

Again I would ask, how does this discussion focus our eyes on Jesus? It is through beholding Him we are become changed, and it is He that bends down with mercy and grace sufficient to blot out all our sin.

Is there not sufficient vengeance laid in wait on the great and terrible day of JHVH? Should we not rejoice and grab hold of the grace offered us while the veil of mercy from True Jesus Sacrifice still covers the earth from the wrath of a just and mighty JHVH?

Time is so very short.

[Nicodema]

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This statement betrays such an extreme ignorance of history and of human nature, and such a profound lack of ability to draw forth a sound exegetical understanding of what the Bible really says, that I doubt that any further meaningful discussion can take place between us. But I will try.

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The above statement is merely true of your entire last post. It is not the truth concerning anything that I have stated whatsoever. You are the one who demonstrates an utter inability to enter meaningful discussion. Just take your last post as an example. Behold:

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Perhaps we should open up the doors of our prisons and say, "We do not condemn you, go and sin no more." Then we can turn loose all those serial rapists and killers and other violent felons back onto the streets, and trust that Jesus will somehow

make

them repent,

make

them be converted,

make

them stop sinning. And of course we can just disband all of our police departments, since they will no longer be needed.

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Ludicrous histrionics and multiple non-sequiturs which have nothing to do with anything I'm saying. You're entirely off in la-la land here, as usual, projecting your overblown fears and fanaticisms onto someone else.

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What happened in the history of the Jewish people? For hundreds of years, they practiced toleration, refrained from imposing punitive sanctions, and allowed people to bring in idols and Baal-worship, and combine it with the religion of Israel (after all, "Baal" just means "Lord," they could say)

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Talk about an utter lack of ability to read and exegete Scripture! The entire Old Testament is filled with the bloody history of apostates being put to the sword and worse. Time and again the reigning priestcraft calls for their visceral and violent destruction -- and time and again Israel still experiences problems with apostasy and pagan/idol worship. Thus proving over and over again the utter futility and failure of the violent-retributive-punitive model.

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You never read in the New Testament where the Jewish people had any further inclination toward idolatry or Baal-worship. That was not the end of their sin, of course. They (or at least the leadership) did reject Jesus. But they did finally get over the sins of idolatry and Baal-worship.

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Hmm, yes, all they did was just reject their own centuries-foretold Messiah. Wonder why that was? Could it have something to do with His complete eschewing of the violent-political-punitive model in His teaching of the Kingdom of God? Maybe have something to do with the fact that His Kingdom was not of this world, nor was He going to take up the sword to enforce His Law of Love? As I recall that's more or less why Judas betrayed Him in the end -- because He wouldn't be the kind of "let's roll" Messiah Judas thought He should be to be the "REAL" King of the Jews.

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In the Christian age, what is

always

tried most commonly is not taking any action against sinners. Tolerance, forgiveness, offering no forceful resistance to the sins various people cherish, is the very easiest thing for sinful human nature to do.

---

Yes, that's why the church has historically put to the rack and the stake any and all who disagreed with her. She didn't learn from having her own children fed to the lions by bloodthirsty Romans. No, as soon as she got a sliver of political power under her belt she was off to punish the so-called heretic, the pagan, and the scientist alike for daring to think and feel differently from her divine mandates. And Protestants didn't learn either, for they came to the USA and immediately started in with such stupidity as the Salem witch trials, and they are STILL lusting after and trying to grab political power to enforce their standards on everyone else.

NO TRUST IN CHRIST WHATSOEVER. No faith that His heart of love is the most formidable power in the entire Universe and the ONLY method by which the sinner may be transformed into the obedient Child of God.

I'm not even going to waste my time addressing where you really strip down to your bare colors with all this talk about the OOOOHHHH BOOGA BOOGA EEEEVUL LIBERALS (**YAWN**) -- I'm just not into the flagellation of necrotic equine flesh these days, and I refuse to dignify such utter garbage with so much as a response. All I can say is ... talk about labelling, "political correctness", and hate speech ... wow. Looks like someone should have taken at least ONE glance into the mirror before shooting off at the mouth.

[jvixie]

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WWJD?

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What they will notice is that their beloved teacher is gone, and that will cause them to have questions and wonder why someone was mean enough to fire their nice Mrs. Smith (or whatever her name is).

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Nicodema, I've been reading this sad story about the Michigan conference for the past few days and it seems to me that there are a lot of people who don't understand what you were trying to get across. How sad.

I agree with you that most of those young children will only remember that their teacher was gone.

I too have been an SDA elementary teacher, Jr. Academy principal, and an Academy principal,(not 40 years, only 28 years) and I've seen how some boards treat people. I've seen some board members who seem enjoy the "power and control" they have over others.

We had an academy student get pregnant the summer before her senior year and many people wanted to expel her, even her father who is an SDA pastor wanted her expelled.

The board finally voted to have her stay home in her final trimester, but she could still do her assignments. She had her baby in January and came back to school. There was not one other girl at the school that wanted to be in her position even though her father thought that all the other girls would want to have a baby.

I was proud to hand her her High School diploma the following June. I believe love and grace work. (She is now married to the child's father and they are doing fine, praise the Lord.)

I finally had enough and have been back in the classroom teaching 3rd grade in a public school for the past 3 years. People at my school are treated with respect and dignity.

My dad passed away in May 2003, and in March of that year, I took him to visit family in southern California. We visited the Garden Grove SDA church and on the way out after the Sabbath sermon, the pastor asked my dad, "And who are you?"

I liked what my dad's response, He said to the pastor, "I'm a recovering legalist." That's what I'm trying to be too.

John

[K]

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[:"green"] Sounds like yours did as well, based on the scant information you provided. Circumstances alter cases. Did this board, or yours, act with Solomonic, godlike wisdom? That's beyond me. But both acted charitably and responsibly, again, given the facts that we have before us.

[/]

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I gave scant information to protect the people I know and love. Our board made a wise decision in that instance, but there are other issues that we failed to do the right thing. I loved being involved with my children's school; but as it has already been noted, school boards can be pushed and manipulated to please "key people".

I hope all those board members made the decisons they made because they felt like it was the right thing to do, and not because of the pressure of one strong group or person.

K

[Bob Sands]

Well, Bevin, from the looks of the results of your poll, the SDA's must have had some good sex education on birth control at some level. Can't tell about those NonSDAs though.

I wonder if there is a Clinton factor here or do the participates predate general acceptance of that sort of thing.

[Johann]

I just read this now several months after the last contribution. What amazes me is that there was never a single reaction to Greg Matthews' post. Does that mean that a woman is always guilty, regardless?

[Gerr]

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Bob Sands said:

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Bob,

I am not sure how anything I might say further could be received as either

genuine or anything more than party line. I am sorry for the painful

things you've experienced within the Seventh-day Adventist community, and

as a part of that community I apologize for how we may have treated you.

Thank you for your questions and registering your thoughts. They are not

received lightly.

Larry Lichtenwalter, Senior Pastor

Village SDA Church

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Here's Pastor Larry's latest response. At least he admits he has nothing more than the party line to offer. I do appreciate his words of compassion to me personally, but again all talk and no action!!!!

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[:"blue"] Is that what he is saying? [/]

Somehow, after reading your letter to the editor in the Review (or was it the Signs?) and threads you start here in the Forum, I get the feeling that your anti-SDA bias is coloring your reading of even a very simple letter, and that you are just trying to seize every opportunity to try to embarrass the church that you left, and that any decisions made by any in the church that do not meet your approval are not "creative" enough and that they are just "talk and no action".

As a member of the Body, I too, offer my apologies for whatever pain anyone has caused you.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Let me ask you: Does the gospel of forgiveness nullify the consequences of wrong-doing?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Was the King in Mt 22 a legalist for enforcing a dress code in his Son's wedding?

Was the Bridegroom in Mt 25 a legalist for shutting the door in the face of the bridesmaid that had not enough oil?

Was the Master in Mt 25 a legalist for insisting a return on the goods/talents he handed out?

Is God a legalist for insisting that "the wages of sin is death?"

Gerry