Guest Posted June 1, 2012 Posted June 1, 2012 Attorney General Eric Holder, the IRS, and the liberal lawyers at the ACLU will brief several hundred pastors in the African American community on how to participate in the presidential election -- which the Congressional Black Caucus chair expects will help President Obama's campaign. "We will have representatives from nine denominations who actually pastor somewhere in the neighborhood of about 10 million people, and we're going to first of all equip them with the information they need to know about what they can say and what they cannot say in the church that would violate their 501c3 status with the IRS," Rep. Emanuel Cleaver, D-Mo., told MSNBC today. "In fact, we're going to have the IRS administrator there, we're going to have the Attorney General Eric Holder there, we're going to have the lawyers' organization from around the country, the ACLU -- all giving ministers guidance about what they can and cannot do," he noted. Cleaver said they would not tell pastors which candidate to support. They will let them know who to regard as the bad guys, though (hint: not Democrats). "We're going to talk about some of the draconian laws that have cropped up around the country as a result of the 17 percent increase in African American votes," Cleaver said, describing voter ID laws as a form of Jim Crow-style "poll tax" on seniors and black voters. The CBC chairman is confident that "President Obama is going to get 95 percent of the [African American] vote," and wants to keep that turnout high. "We want to let them know that there is a theological responsibility to participate in the political process, at least in the Judeo-Christian tradition," he said. Video: http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.c...ign-2012/567501 Quote
Moderators lazarus Posted June 1, 2012 Moderators Posted June 1, 2012 Amen! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
bonnie Posted June 1, 2012 Posted June 1, 2012 Amen! What a truly pathetic president we have. Not surprising that he is so willing to spit on the constitution he swore to uphold. Doesn't he consider the black race intelligent enough to vote without the IRS etc coming in to tell them? That whole thing is an insult Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 2, 2012 Administrators Posted June 2, 2012 Originally Posted By: lazarus Amen! What a truly pathetic president we have. Not surprising that he is so willing to spit on the constitution he swore to uphold. Doesn't he consider the black race intelligent enough to vote without the IRS etc coming in to tell them? That whole thing is an insult Did you even read what it said?!?! Did you watch the video?!?! Your comment was so far off the track that one can only assume you didn't. And if you did, you obviously did not understand it, even a little! The IRS has a significant role in enforcing the prohibition of political activity by churches and other non-profits, charities, etc. If there is a violation the AJ office would have to take legal action. The IRS conducts education of this sort on this issue during each election cycle. It is no secret that many churches, particularly African-American churches, have danced far to close to the edge of this rule. This is an effort to educate them to keep them from violating it. Now how do you get from this report that it is an insult or that Obama is spitting on the constitution? Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
bonnie Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 Did you even read what it said?!?! Did you watch the video?!?! Your comment was so far off the track that one can only assume you didn't. And if you did, you obviously did not understand it, even a little! The IRS has a significant role in enforcing the prohibition of political activity by churches and other non-profits, charities, etc. If there is a violation the AJ office would have to take legal action. The IRS conducts education of this sort on this issue during each election cycle. It is no secret that many churches, particularly African-American churches, have danced far to close to the edge of this rule. This is an effort to educate them to keep them from violating it. Now how do you get from this report that it is an insult or that Obama is spitting on the constitution? Really? Cleaver said they would not tell pastors which candidate to support. They will let them know who to regard as the bad guys, though (hint: not Democrats). "We're going to talk about some of the draconian laws that have cropped up around the country as a result of the 17 percent increase in African American votes," Cleaver said, describing voter ID laws as a form of Jim Crow-style "poll tax" on seniors and black voters. This says a lot.Bad guys according to whom?They have a right to go into any church and tell the pastors/congregations who the bad guy is. Voter ID laws should be just plain common sense.If you want the privilege of voting then you need to take enough interest to obtain a ID. What a insult to anyone that they are to stupid/ignorant or just plain to lazy to obtain a ID and make "the other guy the bad guy" for wanting proper ID. Of course then they could only vote once and certainly not if they are dead. Explain to me why the black congregations are so uninformed or unable to understand? How many white congregations are they going to tell how wrong requiring voter ID is and who the bad guys are Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
bonnie Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 In fact, we're going to have the IRS administrator there, we're going to have the Attorney General Eric Holder there, we're going to have the lawyers' organization from around the country, the ACLU -- all giving ministers guidance about what they can and cannot do," he noted. When the IRS shows up it is not to explain the rules to someone. The rules are available to any that ask,if you can't understand them you are expected to take the steps necessary so that you do.Claiming ignorance doesn't work for others.Nor do they show up to give you a crash course because black churches are known to try to circumvent the rules concerning politics from the pulpit. Explain to me where this has been done before? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 2, 2012 Administrators Posted June 2, 2012 Watch the video. This statement is never made: "They will let them know who to regard as the bad guys, though (hint: not Democrats)." That is the editorial commentary of the Examiner writer, Joel Gehrke. (Carefully note that his byline is not "reporter", but "Commentary Staff Writer".) Cleaver in fact emphasizes the very opposite of that idea. Joel Gehrke is just lying. That is not journalism, but political tripe. Listen, this is an area of the law that I deal with all the time. I know the IRS person that was likely at the meeting, Lois Lerner. I have been in many other meetings with her briefing representatives of various denominations and other tax exempt organizations. You ask when the IRS has done this before. Here is their public notice from the 2008 election period - http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=181570,00.html . If you follow the links at the bottom you will see a report of previous efforts. This is ongoing. The reason that the black churches are specifically being targeted for this education is that it has been widely reported by conservative watchdog organizations and the general media that they are most likely to cross the line into prohibited political activity. I applaud the Congressional Black Caucus for taking this education initiative. It is long overdue. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
bonnie Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 >> you have the big summit tomorrow. what is your message to several hundred clergy members who will be there? >> we will have representatives from nine denominations who actually are somewhere in the neighborhood of about ten million people. and we are going to first of all equip them with the information they need to know about what they can say and what they cannot say in the church that would violate their status with the irs . we are going to have the irs administrator there and the attorney general there and the lawyers around the country giving ministers guidance on what they can and cannot do. also we will talk to them about some of the laws that have cropped up around the country as a result of the 17% increase in african american votes. Why is the IRS involved in talking or educating the black community about voter ID? >> give us an example of the kind of law that is of great concern to you. >> first of all, according a university of new york study about 18% of seniors don't have a government issued id. in many states what is required as government id is a photograph. people have to go out and pay money to get a government issued id. in some cases it costs as much as $20. now, that is not a lot of money except that that essentially becomes a poll tax for seniors. Seniors need photo ID for many things and no one calls it a poll tax.We all do,why is the privilege of voting exempt? we want to let them know that there is a theological responsibility to participate in the political process at least in the christian tradition . so we are going to encourage them to encourage their people. we are not going to endorse any candidate. we are not going to pass out a voter's guide as some churches have been doing over the past few years in violation of the irs . we don't want that to happen in the churches that we are going to bring to washington. we want them to have the facts. A congressman/IRS or any other public figure has overstepped his bounds informing anyone it is a theological responsibility to participate in the political process > we do know that the vast majority, 90 plus percent of african american voters support president obama . Of course the black community will blindly vote for Obama so what is the big push for? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 2, 2012 Administrators Posted June 2, 2012 Listen carefully. There were two separate issues being addressed. The IRS is the government agency required to enforce the political activity prohibition, because it is a part of the Internal Revenue Code that is applicable to all of the tax exempt 501©(3) entities, which includes all churches. The other issue is the voter ID requirements which have are being targeted as adversely impacting low income, some minorities and senior citizens and some new voters still in school who do not have what is typically accepted - a driver's license. Many of the laws are narrowly crafted to create an undue burden with no alternative ID's allowed. The IRS is not addressing that issue. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Members phkrause Posted June 2, 2012 Members Posted June 2, 2012 Watch the video. This statement is never made: "They will let them know who to regard as the bad guys, though (hint: not Democrats)." That is the editorial commentary of the Examiner writer, Joel Gehrke. (Carefully note that his byline is not "reporter", but "Commentary Staff Writer".) Cleaver in fact emphasizes the very opposite of that idea. Joel Gehrke is just lying. That is not journalism, but political tripe. Listen, this is an area of the law that I deal with all the time. I know the IRS person that was likely at the meeting, Lois Lerner. I have been in many other meetings with her briefing representatives of various denominations and other tax exempt organizations. You ask when the IRS has done this before. Here is their public notice from the 2008 election period - http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=181570,00.html . If you follow the links at the bottom you will see a report of previous efforts. This is ongoing. The reason that the black churches are specifically being targeted for this education is that it has been widely reported by conservative watchdog organizations and the general media that they are most likely to cross the line into prohibited political activity. I applaud the Congressional Black Caucus for taking this education initiative. It is long overdue. Exactly, not sure what's so hard to understand! Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Members phkrause Posted June 2, 2012 Members Posted June 2, 2012 Listen carefully. There were two separate issues being addressed. The IRS is the government agency required to enforce the political activity prohibition, because it is a part of the Internal Revenue Code that is applicable to all of the tax exempt 501©(3) entities, which includes all churches. The other issue is the voter ID requirements which have are being targeted as adversely impacting low income, some minorities and senior citizens and some new voters still in school who do not have what is typically accepted - a driver's license. Many of the laws are narrowly crafted to create an undue burden with no alternative ID's allowed. The IRS is not addressing that issue. Again a very good post. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
bonnie Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 Quote: The other issue is the voter ID requirements which have are being targeted as adversely impacting low income, some minorities and senior citizens and some new voters still in school who do not have what is typically accepted - a driver's license. Many of the laws are narrowly crafted to create an undue burden with no alternative ID's allowed. The IRS is not addressing that issue. The church is addressing political issues against IRS rules.The hype and handwringing over the unfairness requiring identification is poppycock. State ID is very cheap in all states. For certain groups it is even offered free. If you do not have what it takes to obtain a photo ID,the solution is simple,Don't Vote. Seniors typically have ID.Anyone that has a bank account has had to show proof. What alternative to a photo in hand is there to prove identification? What Does A State ID Cost? So, exactly how much does an ID cost in the 50 States? Not a DL Alabama – $23 Alaska – Under 60 is $15, over 60 is free Arizona – $12. Over 65 is free Arkansas – $10 California – $23. Free for those over 62. $7 for low income folks Colorado – $10.50. Free for those over 60 Connecticut – $15 Delaware -$5 Florida – $3 Georgia -$20 for 5 years, $35 for $10 years Hawaii – $15 for under 65, $10 for over 65 Idaho – $7.50. Renewals can even be done by mail Illinois – $20, free for seniors over 65with no renewal necessary Indiana – $13 under 65, $10 for over 65, last for 6 years, which is the state this whole kerfuffle is over Iowa – $5 Kansas – $18 under 65, $14 over 65 Kentucky – $12 Louisiana – Average $21, free for over 60 Maine – $5 Maryland – $15, free for those over 65 Massachusetts – $15 Michigan – $10, free for seniors. Oh, and those with mental impairments (hint, hint) Minnesota – $15.50, $10.75 for those 65 and up Mississippi – $13 Missouri – $11 Montana – $8 Nebraska – $23.75 (lots of different fees for those under 21) Nevada – $11.25. For 65 and up, new is $6.25, renewal is $2.25 New Hampshire – haven’t been able to find the cost, even at the New Hampshire DMV or New Hampshire’s main site New Jersey – $24 New Mexico – $5 for 5 years, $8 for 10 years New York – Depending on length, $9 to $14. 62 and up, $6.50 North Carolina – $10 North Dakota – $8 Ohio – $8.50 Oklahoma – $10 Oregon – $29 for 8 years Pennsylvania – $10, and they make it really, really easy Rhode Island – $15, free for 59 and up South Carolina – $5 South Dakota – $8 Tennessee – $12.50. For those 65 and up, they never expire Texas – $15. 60 and up, $5 and never has to be renewed Utah – $18. Never expires for those 65 and up Vermont – $15, $10 if you get Social Security Income Virginia – $10 Washington – $20 West Virginia – can’t find an actual figure Wisconsin – $28 for eight years Wyoming – $10, never expires Washington, D.C. – How much you got? In reality, $20. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 2, 2012 Administrators Posted June 2, 2012 No it is not against IRS rules. Addressing the Voter ID problem is not a prohibited political activity for a church to engage in. Again, you are mixing the two separate issues up. It's not such simple poppycock as you think. http://www.brennancenter.org/content/section/category/voter_id To see a bit on the actual comments by Holder about this issue - http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/05/30/holder-minority-rights-under-threat-from-voter-id-laws/ Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
bonnie Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 It's not such simple poppycock as you think. http://www.brennancenter.org/content/section/category/voter_id Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
bonnie Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 She's right you know, Tom. It is yet another crisis. Anyone receiving social services has to have had the documentation to obtain that. Any senior citizen on medicare has had the proper documentation to get a photoID Anyone on welfare has as well.While there will be some that will always fall thru the cracks on any issue there isn't any law or lack of law that can cover that. There is no excuse for not having to prove your identity for voting as you do many other areas of life Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Guest Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 You don't think they are so adamantly against it because they know they are relying on voter fraud to win, do you? Quote
bonnie Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 You don't think they are so adamantly against it because they know they are relying on voter fraud to win, do you? Nah,couldn't be that. In MN we have the democratic resurrection every major election to ensure a democratic win Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Guest Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 Maybe democrats really do have immortality of the soul. You never hear about dead republicans voting. Quote
Woody Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
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