Restaurants on Sabbath?

[Paul Beach]

Dear friends,

Mrs. Gray has recently learned that many Adventists go to restaurants after church for various reasons. She would like to know what your thoughts are on this issue.

[Paul Beach]

Thank you for your kind responses. A brief follow-up for those who marked the first response in question one, "They are open anyway - why not go and fellowship without the work" who did not mark "Yes - people have to eat." Could you please explain the rationale for going to restaurants on Sabbath, but why it is not okay to work there?

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Mrs. Gray

[Gerr]

I think you should set your poll up in such a way that one could check more than one answer. For instance, there was a time when my wife & I & often with other church members when we were attending another church, would go out to a restaurant after church. I never felt right about it. I believe the Holy Spirit was speaking to me, so we don't do that anymore. However, when we are traveling & could not prepare our own food, or if there is an emergency, I would have no qualms eating out. By the same token, if we have campmeeting, or GC session, or add to that our hospitals, if you are going to feed the attendees & sick people, someone has to work to provide the food, or there may be an emergency.

Gerry

[Paul Beach]

Dear friends,

Mrs. Gray thought that the breakdown would be more in favor of not eating at restaurants on Sabbath. So far, 20 have said it is okay since restaurants are open on Sabbath. Yet only 5 said it is okay to work at a restaurant.

Why is it okay to eat there, but not work there? What is your Biblical support for this position?

Sincerely,

Mrs. Gray

[Ron Lambert]

Maybe some people feel, like Orthodox Jews, that it is OK if they get a gentile to do the work. However, I believe that God created the Sabbath for man (Mark 2:27), so "gentiles" are obligated too, whether they know it or not, and I don't want to be complicit in their sin even of ignorance.

[Dr. Shane]

If we use the day of preperation as we should we will not need to eat out on Sabbath. Even if we are traveling we can prepare food before hand to eat during the Sabbath day. We are to remember the Sabbath all week long, not just on the seventh day. I have discovered that most of the time when I break the Sabbath it is because I did not use the day of preperation as I should have.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "Even if we are traveling we can prepare food before hand to eat during the Sabbath day."

Not always, in this modern age.

[Nicodema]

Quote:

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If we use the day of preperation as we should we will not need to eat out on Sabbath. Even if we are traveling we can prepare food before hand to eat during the Sabbath day.

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This brings up another question: is it not breaking Sabbath to use the Sabbath day as a travelling day? I'm not talking about driving to church or out to a visit or some kind of Isaiah 58 thing but about long distance travel that takes several hours on the road.

[Nicodema]

Quote:

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Maybe some people feel, like Orthodox Jews, that it is OK if they get a gentile to do the work. However, I believe that God created the Sabbath for man (Mark 2:27), so "gentiles" are obligated too, whether they know it or not, and I don't want to be complicit in their sin even of ignorance.

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Surprise surprise, I agree with Ron for once! (We have had some serious disagreements elsewhere.)

The sabbath commandment states we are to refrain from work and not only ourselves but "our manservant or maidservant" as well. Waiters, chefs, and others who prepare and serve food in restaurants are, for the duration of your visit, your manservants and maidservants. It is therefore, in my understanding, a breach of the Sabbath commandment to have them work for you on the Sabbath day.

I was REALLY surprised to find myself in the minority on this, and to find the majority are fine and dandy with eating out at whim on Sabbath. I could understand the "in an emergency" response but to find that most were fine with doing it for convenience's sake? That surprised me!

Like Mrs. Gray, I too wonder about the majority thinking it's fine to eat out on Sabbath but not to work at an eating establishment on Sabbath. That seems a rather curious divide ...

[Taylor]

I agree with many of you that we need to plan ahead so as to not need to eat out on Sabbath. I think it would be a very rare case where it was "needed" to eat out.

And if it is for fellowship reasons, why not get together at someone's house, potluck the meal or rotate from one perons's house to another to get together with friends? That works well too.

[benherndon]

Do you folks realize how many people are old and don't eat at home on week days?---go out to senior lunches somewhere, or the local fast food places somewhere? So on Sabbath they should sit home and suck their thumbs? They are lonesome for social contact---Sabbath is a good time for social contact because most SDAs are working on the other days. Lots of very traditional SDAs don't go to church anymore--but watch it on TV or listen on radio. They have ailments that make church going very painful and thus, difficult.

Just you wait until you get old and literally unable physically or mentally to cook safely in your own homes.

And another thing----if you're gonna be so strict on Sabbath observance, then, why don't you follow the other strict Sabbath rules, no lighting a fire, no going out of your tent, and also the rules in Jer 17?--and 'a day of complete rest!"-- like accompany the 'commandment' you promote so intensely.

I get calls every week from old folks who are nearly blind, can no longer safely drive, hungry for some company---calling me, who still drives, to come pick them up and take them out to Sabbath lunch somewhere. Sometimes my car will not hold another person its so full---and I've been known to pick up one couple and go get another, too.

I have an appointment to pick up a very traditional old SDA couple in LL, along with a lady scheduled in 2 weeks to have a valve replacement (pig valve incidentally---- )

to take them all to Marie Callander's for lunch Sabbath. (Where they will very carefully choose something vegatarian). No these are NOT emergencies! Jesus didn't have an 'emergency' on the Sabbath when He healed the man crippled 38 yrs since birth by the Pool of Bethsaida either!

Who says its OK to have your wife cook for 5 other people on Sabbath?----working 'til sundown, even cheating a little on the sundown published 'minute' (you all, everyone, knows what I mean) and then being so busy Sabbath she can hardly have a Sabbath-rest herself?

You people need to study the NT and get away from the 'vail' (of 2Cor 3) that keeps you from seeing the message of the NT about being Christian rather than being Judaizers.

I ain't 'mad' at anybody --- I'm just trying to wake you up!

Get real! We are not still in tents around Mt Sinai, these days!

Ben

[Paul Beach]

Dear individuals,

Some people obviously marked it is okay to eat out, but not okay to work. We have yet to hear from somebody who said it is not okay to work, but okay to eat out.

Mrs. Gray

[darlene]

I worked in the food service while I attended Andrews University and I worked on Sabbath. I don't think it was possible to tell all the students to get lost on Sabbath and shut the cafeteria down. Where would they have gone to eat? We had to work though we were given the option to work and get paid or work and not get paid. We had to make that choice.

I've also been food service director of a couple of camps where camp meeting is held and I worked on Sabbath. Where are you going to have people eat if the cafeteria is shut down at camp meeting, especially when the camp is several miles from town. The camp is also a convention centre where groups come in on weekends. As much of the cooking for the weekend is done in advance however, there are things that cannot be done and heating, cooking and serving is done on Sabbath.

Yes, I do believe there are times when one working in food service has to work on Sabbath. I think each individual working with food needs to make this decision for themselves.

A restaurant setting is different though. People can usually find another restaurant if one is closed on Sabbath.

Eating in a restaurant on Sabbath is another kettle of fish. Most often it is not a necessity though it is a convenience for those women who work all week and then rest on Sabbath. I do feel that just going out to a restaurant to eat on Sabbath is not right but, when travelling I will stop at a drive-through restaurant on Sabbath morning if necessary. (I don't really know what the difference is between a drive-through or sit-down one. Just seems a little better because you do not watch the people work as they get your food ready! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

[Clio]

Part of Sabbath for our family is the bearing of another's burden. In the bearing of another's burden, I am quite certain that I have worked on the Sabbath. Perhaps not for gainful employment, but I have worked.

Would I deliberately take a job that required me to work on Sabbath? Perhaps... it would depend on my motivation for taking the job.

Meal service in an institutional setting serving the needs of people who cannot "do" for themselves, certainly. Ministering to the ill, infirm, or injured, definitely.

So then I ask myself... which is more grievous? To deny aid to one physically ill, infirm, or injured or to deny aid to one who is spiritually, emotionally, or mentally ill, infirm, or injured?

Job 22:9 Thou hast sent widows away empty, and the arms of the fatherless have been broken.

Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

1Ti 5:16 If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.

Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

I think this last verse says it best. Pure, undefiled religion before Abba Father includes alleviating the burden of the widows and the fatherless. Certainly there are parallels of this principle in meeting the emotional and spiritual needs of others.

SO... in summation, I do believe it is totally a heart motivation that determines whether eating out on Sabbath is wrong or not. Is your eating out assisting others in their affliction? Is it contributing to your spiritual growth, to focusing on serving others and communing with Abba Father?

If the answers to those questions are "yes" and a clear conscience, then I believe it to be pure, undefiled worship before Abba, and pleasing to Him.

It's all about a relationship with Him.

[Guest]

Darlene said this. “I worked in the food service while I attended Andrews University and I worked on Sabbath. I don't think it was possible to tell all the students to get lost on Sabbath and shut the cafeteria down. Where would they have gone to eat?

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Allow me to answer this question, I think I remember reading of a SDA student back when education was wort obtaining that lived on a barrel of apples and graham crackers for a entire semester and even gained weight. As far as eating in restaurants, Sabbath or otherwise, other than a salad bar what can a health reformer eat? Remember the SOP says that “God gave health reform, those that rejected it reject God”! But this counsel given to Adventist churches seem to have fallen to the ground at least 100 years ago and in most case still despised today.

“Let the people be taught how to prepare food without the use of milk or butter. Tell them that the time will soon come when there will be no safety in using eggs, milk, cream, or butter, because disease in animals is increasing in proportion to the increase of wickedness among men. The time is near when, because of the iniquity of the fallen race, the whole animal creation will groan under the diseases that curse our earth. {7T 135.1}

God will give His people ability and tact to prepare wholesome food without these things. Let our people discard all unwholesome recipes. Let them learn how to live healthfully, teaching to others what they have learned. Let them impart this knowledge as they would Bible instruction. Let them teach the people to preserve the health and increase the strength by avoiding the large amount of cooking that has filled the world with chronic invalids. By precept and example make it plain that the food which God gave Adam in his sinless state is the best for man's use as he seeks to regain that sinless state.

136

[Clio]

Dear Mrs. Gray -

While I find it refreshing to find a church-lady conducting a scientific poll to assist her in her quest to assist others, I was highly disappointed in the content of the poll.

To my dismay, I could not find an answer in either form of the poll that I could answer affirmatively... and so I have not answered although I have replied.

None of the answers provided were ones I could select and feel my opinion was truly represented.

Sincerely,

An Individual

[Dr. Shane]

Despite what anyone says, meals can be prepared for the Sabbath - even when traveling. Simple meals may be peanutbutter sandwiches, apples, crackers and V8 juice. Add dried fruit, boiled eggs, popcorn, cheese, raw carrots, celery, mixed nuts, etc, etc, etc.

Elderly folks that eat out during weekdays can warm up TV dinners in the microwave if they must stay home. However the church should see to it that such folks are always invited to someone's home each Sabbath afternoon. At my church we have an open potluck once a month and the rest of the Sabbaths we have a potluck for visitors and loners in the church. Many hispanic churches I have attended have potluck every Sabbath. Often times we go out after AY (which starts 1/2 hour before sundown) or go to a member's home.

Inviting each other to our homes for meals should be a regular part of our religious lives. One should never have to go out to eat on Sabbath because their should always be plenty of invitations to eat at members' homes. If I visit a church and don't get an inviation to eat at someone's home, that is diffinately a bad mark on that church. I have never visited a hispanic or black church and not been invited to a meal, either at a home or in the church, afterwards.

[K]

Quote:

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[:"green"] Inviting each other to our homes for meals should be a regular part of our religious lives. One should never have to go out to eat on Sabbath because their should always be plenty of invitations to eat at members' homes. If I visit a church and don't get an inviation to eat at someone's home, that is diffinately a bad mark on that church. I have never visited a hispanic or black church and not been invited to a meal, either at a home or in the church, afterwards.

[/]

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Dear Shane,

Unfortuanetly we all don't live in your "perfect world". I agree that preparation for Sabbath should begin long before the 7th day, but in the real world it takes a bunch of work to invite people to your house. It also takes a lot of work to host potluck at church. I do both Shane because I think the fellowship with each other on Sabbath is one of the most important aspects of Sabbath, however it wonderful for me to eat out with friends. Eating out is so relaxing, and makes my Sabbath extra special.

I don't think it is as cut and dry as you want it to be. Instead of trying to get everyone to live up to what your standards or my standards are, maybe we should allow God's Holy Spirit to move upon the heart. Gerry mentioned that he never felt good about it, and had stopped. To me I see that it is God's spirit working.

We spend so much time beating each other up because we don't live up to the "standards", that I think we miss the opportunities to touch lives. Jesus was in the people business and we need to be in the people business too!

K

[Gregory Matthews]

This is one of the catagory of questions that is an individual choice. It is between the person, and God. It really is not for us to say. It is not for us to judge another.

Yes, Shane's perfect world does not exist for some. Some may be able to follow his counsel. But, for others, that is impossible.

I sometimes ask: Why do we bring up questions such as these? People who ask them, often have decided the answere for themselves, already. As such, I suspect they are either just attempting to get a heated discussion going, or to impose their approach on others. But, is there really anyone here who is honestly asking the question for themself, so that they can understand?

NOTE: I have forgotten who began this thread. So, I am not directing any comment to any specific person.

[Guest]

Quote:

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This is one of the catagory of questions that is an individual choice. It is between the person, and God. It really is not for us to say. It is not for us to judge another.

Yes, Shane's perfect world does not exist for some. Some may be able to follow his counsel. But, for others, that is impossible.

I sometimes ask: Why do we bring up questions such as these? People who ask them, often have decided the answere for themselves, already. As such, I suspect they are either just attempting to get a heated discussion going, or to impose their approach on others. But, is there really anyone here who is honestly asking the question for themself, so that they can understand?

NOTE: I have forgotten who began this thread. So, I am not directing any comment to any specific person.

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Well I need to ask a direct question to Shane and the "perfect world" he tells about as it it will apply to many posters/readers here. He mentioned eggs [chicken droppings] & cheese. He professes to believe in the SOP and he knows that counsel was given in 1903 "that soon there would be no safety in using milk, eggs & cheese" [7T 135] yet he is suggestion it is still safe to uses these items 102 years later by packing them in a lunch bag. Please tell me what I am missing here? With him working in construction and the specifaction book is bigger than a Los Angeles phone book and NO ONE in construction would dare to disregard anything that written there by the engineers. You either do as the enigneers say or start selling vaccum cleaner from door to door. That just the way it works "in a perfect world".Is information from heaven to be less honored that moral mans speck sheet??? I've got a bald spot on my head now from sctatching it, help me out here!!!

[Taylor]

Eating or not eating eggs is not a salvation issue Ed. It is healthier to not eat them, but , don't come down so hard on Shane for this. There are other issues far more important than eggs!

BTW I am just curious. Are you a subscriber to Hope International's magazine? They are well meaning but often critical.

I am not judging you personally, but take it easy on people and give them the benefit of the doubt, allow for spiritual growth, allow for differences when they are not salvation issues.

(Edited by me because of a spelling mistake.)

[Bravus]

Gregory: I agree, and I've stopped contributing to some of these threads, since what looks like a genuine request for sharing of ideas and discussion so often ends up being an occasion for condemnation. If someone asks me for my opinion (i.e. I don't impose it on them), and I offer it in good faith, I expect it to be treated with respect. Doesn't mean they have to agree with me, of course, but it's not fair to ask for my opinion then tell me I'm wrong, and probably sinful.

[Guest]

Taylor said this. "BTW I am just curious. Are you a subscriber to Hope International's magazine? They are well meaning but often critical."

======================

No I am not, but the magazine has showed up on my door step [free] with the same lable sticker that comes from IIW/VOP or from the GC. They are all in the same camp and I hope that Hope International is well meaning and are only deceived with the error they teach.

And thank you so much for being concerened about me, you are right of course! But so am I or I would never have said it.

On that same page written 102 years ago the "spec sheet" says "that I am to give this instruction [to discard milk,eggs & cheese] as though it were bible instruction". Isn't there a bible verse that says. "Have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth?"

[benherndon]

Ed says, "Please tell me what I am missing here?"

As gently as possible-----you are missing knowledge of the NT teachings, you are loading 'the writings' with nearly Canonical importance, and you are lacking age and compassion for the changes that occur with age, and you're being too judgmental about how others should follow Adventist 'rules' and 'teachings' that just might not be equivalent to real basics regarding salvation.

I am NOT judging here---YOU asked the question 'what am I missing?'---remember?

Ben

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: " . . .and you're being too judgmental about how others should follow Adventist 'rules'. . ."

I am not certain that they are always Adventist rules. Sometimes I think they are his rules.