olger Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Originally Posted By: rudywoofs It just seems that nowadays people are trying so hard to eliminate everything that distinguishes men from women, including roles that have been in place since creation. I think it's a shame. Yes it's a shame, but few are ashamed, which means they see no wrong in this pursuit. The solution lies in the old paths, not in the ways of the world. (The world has converted the Church.) Amen-eth! Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
doug yowell Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I think it's easy for men to dismiss this issue because they don't understand what it's like to be treated as as second-class. Nor do the overwhelming majority of women living in Western Civilization. Women in Iran and China would laugh at the idea that not giving them the role of spiritual leadership was second class treatment. Quote
doug yowell Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I don't know why people can't be happy that there is a difference between men and women... It doesn't mean one is 1st class, 2nd class, or 3rd class. This is a great point. Human nature shows that where the inherent differences between the sexes are blurred the appreciation for those differences and their strengths cease to be exercised also. And this brings happiness to no one. Quote
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 17, 2012 Administrators Posted June 17, 2012 Originally Posted By: kailooa I think it's easy for men to dismiss this issue because they don't understand what it's like to be treated as as second-class. Nor do the overwhelming majority of women living in Western Civilization. Women in Iran and China would laugh at the idea that not giving them the role of spiritual leadership was second class treatment. Well actually, in China the women in the Adventist church are a bit puzzled by our debate over this issue. They are long past that and many, if not most, of the spiritual leaders of the Adventist Church there are women... and many are already ordained. As for women in Iran, I am not sure laughter would be the reaction... However, I am not really sure why you interjected that idea anyway... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
doug yowell Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I don't know why people can't be happy that there is a difference between men and women... It doesn't mean one is 1st class, 2nd class, or 3rd class. Huh? If their gifts and attributes are the same then what's to celebrate,anatomical differences? Women will never be able to exercise the effective role of a father and men will never be able to exercise the effective nurturing role of a mother. Everyone knows what happens to a family where the woman wears the pants in the family or the man decides that he doesn't want to be responsible for growing up.Do "gifts" and "attributes" suddenly change all that? Quote
Administrators Gail Posted June 17, 2012 Administrators Posted June 17, 2012 I disagree that women are second-class, no matter how they are treated. Don't get hung up on this... do what you can with what you have. If you feel that God is calling you to support a minority, go for it! But there is much that women KNOW they do that never gets acknowledged on this earth, whether they be mothers, wives or working at a low-paying job or even a NO-paying job. If you are a mother, you are shaping SOULS. It doesn't get better than that! Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
jasd Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 >>Women in Iran and China would laugh at the idea that not giving them the role of spiritual leadership was second class treatment.<< Puts me to mind the e-mail I received of an American woman revisiting Afghanistan and seeing 4 wives whom she'd been so proud of helping gain their liberation some years ago - still walking 5 paces behind their husband. Astounded that they'd so quickly fallen back into the old ways - she followed and cornered them in the market place - whereupon she asked, "Why are you still walking 5 paces behind your husband!?" The reply, "Because of IEDs." Perhaps, it is that there are IEDs where least expected, yes? Quote
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 17, 2012 Administrators Posted June 17, 2012 Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 17, 2012 Administrators Posted June 17, 2012 Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
doug yowell Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Huh?!?! You are missing the whole point... So a policy that demands that a female baby be aborted has nothing to do with the importance placed on women in China? Quote
doug yowell Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 It is not about ignoring or being unhappy that men and women are different. It is about recognizing those attributes and gifts possessed by both men and women that are the same, while whole-heartedly celebrating that their differences also have equal standing before God. Originally Posted By: DY Huh? If their gifts and attributes are the same then what's to celebrate,anatomical differences? Women will never be able to exercise the effective role of a father and men will never be able to exercise the effective nurturing role of a mother. Everyone knows what happens to a family where the woman wears the pants in the family or the man decides that he doesn't want to be responsible for growing up.Do "gifts" and "attributes" suddenly change all that? Really missing the point... So clarify your point so we all can know what it was.If the role of family and home leadership has been given by God to the man (which,I assume is the point of this discussion???)then what changes that dynamic? Quote
doug yowell Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Puts me to mind the e-mail I received of an American woman revisiting Afghanistan and seeing 4 wives whom she'd been so proud of helping gain their liberation some years ago - still walking 5 paces behind their husband. Astounded that they'd so quickly fallen back into the old ways - she followed and cornered them in the market place - whereupon she asked, "Why are you still walking 5 paces behind your husband!?" The reply, "Because of IEDs." Perhaps, it is that there are IEDs where least expected, yes? Yes. Four wise women. Quote
olger Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Old Wetmore kept checking his list, For women he thought we had missed. As he looked for proof, He forgot this truth: You can’t find what doesn’t exist Rejoice always dear ones !!! Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
olger Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I disagree that women are second-class, no matter how they are treated. Don't get hung up on this... do what you can with what you have. If you feel that God is calling you to support a minority, go for it! But there is much that women KNOW they do that never gets acknowledged on this earth, whether they be mothers, wives or working at a low-paying job or even a NO-paying job. If you are a mother, you are shaping SOULS. It doesn't get better than that! Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Woody Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Quote: Huh?!?! You are missing the whole point... Exactly Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
Woodenavaklu Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 Originally Posted By: Woodenavaklu ...he provides love and protection. In return she provides submission and obedience. Should she choose to withdraw her submission and/or obedience he has every right to withdraw his love and/or protection. Wooden, It's not really a contract which can be so easily cancelled, more a covenant with God. Where does man have right to withdraw love or duty? Where does the wife? Men are to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself for it. No withdrawal of love or protection. If one party disobeys, they cannot be forced - Just as Christ did not force Israel. So one chooses a partner with care. Those who do not abide by the terms of the contract are written a certificate of divorce in the old testament. The prophets spoke of God divorcing his people. The nation of Israel was divorced by Christ at the stoning of Stephen. Jesus withdrew his love and protection. They had a covenant with God and it was cancelled. Women of the western world need to understand that the same is happening today although many men are working on the premise that prevention is better than cure and are refusing to commit in the first place. Men are the gatekeepers of commitment after all. Quote
CoAspen Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 Quote: Men are the gatekeepers of commitment after all. Was this 'tic'? Could you clarify. Quote
jasd Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 >>Yes. Four wise women.<< Indeed!--yet, we deny the expression of that sort of wisdom to their counterparts in the Xtian church. I believe that we greatly err when we deny wise women the means by which that expression may manifest -- thus aborting those gifts from Gd as provided to and through our 'weaker vessels'. And, we do so with resort to advisements re personal relationships as they ought exist between husband and wife, interpreting and transferring them as though they were meant to apply to the corporate collective. Familial guidelines do not translate well to the corporate collective; which, Biblically, is a matter of an entirely different sort. Of all things aborted, this seems the most sadly egregious, as it implies a mindset which would deny Gd vessels of His own election. But whoa!-- what am I saying? Y'all's embraced EGW big time, yes? But none other... Is there a rationale there? Context re this subject goes entirely to the fact that until recently, ages that preceded were Patriarchal. So we argue anachronisms. We've since evolved to countenance the intelligent woman. It has taken most of two millennia, but we have evolved. The singularly Patriarchal age is fading obsolete. That is the way of all ages per Writ. They end. Since, our women have become Doctors, Lawyers, CEOs, Political leaders, Scientists, Professors, etc - whilst the wisest also remain breast-feeding moms. We now -- well, 'cepting those who consider themselves a 'rear guard' of sorts -- recognize and accept talent and capability from either end of the gender spectrum. Gd calls all His elect, yet we choose -- at that, only the male species. "Masculine Xtianity?" Default Xtianity? Oy!--the loss..., the absolute loss! C'mon, not taking anything away from the dear ladies, as my mother was..., but the .org's finest can function beyond baking Xtian matzo -- quarterly. [/hyperbole] Quote
jasd Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 Erratum: Where I had used Laodicean hierarchy in Post #553068 Yesterday at 02:53 AM - it ought to have read:: Nicolaitan hierarchy. Sorry. Early onslaught... Quote
Matthew Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 Stan, glad to see other people sharing Darius Jankiewicz's presentation on ordination. He's one of my professors at the seminary. Great stuff! Quote
doug yowell Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 Familial guidelines do not translate well to the corporate collective; which, Biblically, is a matter of an entirely different sort. Quote
olger Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 I'd like to talk about spray foam. And onions. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
M. T. Cross Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 If it was not for WOMENS ORDINATION what would people be talking about? I am always down for a conversation on the effects of the Chinese rice mite on Western economic structure..... Or guitars, art, ancient Northern European culture, and like Olger I am always happy to talk about onions. Quote
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