Unity is important, but should it preempt justice?

[doug yowell]

The bearers of the last message of mercy to the church will not even address this issue of WO or any of the many issues confronting the church today. Why? Because those of us who shall accept God's last message of mercy to Laodicea, which message is the invitation to make it our life business to look to Jesus and to accept His merits which it is our privilege to claim that we might be clothed with His robe of righteousness, (T.M.93,92) will then be joined to the Head and become co-laborers with Him (F.W.27)[/quote) I'm not sure what you mean by this,Sky.If looking to Jesus requires that one no longer "contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints" or that the Scriptures no longer "are profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness" then I will passionately disagree.

Quote:

During His ministry Jesus did not sit down with those who composed the Sanhedrin (General Conference of that day or the local conference or church board) to plan and devise with them. There were many issues that Jesus could have addressed, methods and plans that had no place in the work of God, but He did not interpose. He simply went about preaching the truth for His time and doing good.

Again, do we ignore the teachings of Jesus that were direct responses to the hotly contested theological issues of the day? Marriage/Divorce,the Resurrection, Samaritans vs. Jews, taxes, the nature of the coming of the Messiah, the legitimacy of John the Baptist's ministry,ect...

He worked independently from the GC because HE WAS the MESSIAH! His ministry was designed to join with both the leadership and the laity of His day.He later instituted an organized group to fulfill what He had started.

Quote:

This is how I believe the Lord will finish the work in these last days. Again we have come to the fullness of the time in the church and in the world.

Only the proclamation of the living message of righteousness and its acceptance can bring a revival and a reformation within our own individual lives.

Biblical faithfulness requires that we acknowledge the establishment of leadership/authority by God Himself and that His church will only survive when Christ's life is preached and modeled by both church leaders and church members. Working within the organization is a necessity until that organization is so apostate that God calls His faithful out of it.God is patient and longsuffering not willing that any should perish, including His organization and it's leaders.

[Woody]

"The 1990 General Conference Session voted that women should be given wide participation in all church activities, including soul winning and pastoral duties

[phkrause]

"The 1990 General Conference Session voted that women should be given wide participation in all church activities, including soul winning and pastoral duties

Woman have been in "given wide participation in all church activities," since I've been an Adventist.

[olger]

Yet that is exactly what your EGW did......

The message was God's authority.

The messenger was a servant.

rejoice always,

`oG

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Yet that is exactly what your EGW did......

The message was God's authority.

The messenger was a servant.

rejoice always,

`oG

And likewise a pastor is a servant.

[Nic Samojluk]

As posted on Facebook:

"Speaking on this issue [WO] years ago, Charles Bradford, a very prominent black SDA preacher and evangelist challenged this "everywhere at once" notion. He noted that if this principle had been followed, black pastors in the US woudn't have been able to minister before apartheid had ended in South Africa (it ended in 1994). And he asked if people would've been ok with barring black pastors in America and elsewhere until "the whole world was ready". Everyone was silent."

"We cannot then take a position that the unity of the church consists in viewing every text of Scripture in the very same light. The church may pass resolution upon resolution to put down all disagreement of opinions, but we cannot force the mind and will, and thus root out disagreement. These resolutions may conceal the discord, but they cannot quench it and establish perfect agreement. Nothing can perfect unity in the church but the spirit of Christlike forbearance." - EG White

We will never have unity until every Adventist agree with me that eating broccoli is essential for salvation!

[Nic Samojluk]

Thanks, Gerry. That statement by EGW supports allowable variation of practice in the church to accommodate cultural attitudes. But she was clear by her words and her own actions that the prejudice of the South should not prevent doing the right thing in the North where the prejudice was not as much of a barrier. And she also insisted that the prejudice of the Southern white people should not prevent finding ways to work among the blacks of the south and work toward justice. Maintaing the status quo nor imposing it on those that were ready for progress certainly was not what she was advocating.

And that was the point Elder Bradford was making. If unity forces maintaining the status quo until everyone else is ready to move forward, black pastors would have to have been restricted and integration in the church prevented in NAD until apartheid in South Africa ended. And ironically, the consolidation/integration of the black and white conferences in South Africa would not have happened because NAD continues to maintain the regional conferences. (When I was working on a team from the GC helping integrate separate Adventist community services programs for blacks and whites in South Africa, we were asked very pointedly how we could impose that on them when NAD continued to maintain the regional conferences.)

The application to the current WO issue seems clear. If we wait for the rest of the world to get on board with the idea it will never happen. (One has to wonder if that is the intentional strategy of some that are opposed to WO to see that it never happens and to force their will on those in favor of WO.)

Let progress happen where it is acceptable.

In 1 Cor. 9 we find the attitude of Paul which we would to well to imitate:

20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

[Nic Samojluk]

But the key question is: Must the ‘final decision-making authority’ of the Union be in harmony with the votes of the world church? Who trumps who? In exercising its authority and responsibility must the local Union comply with the decisions of the world church or must the world church adapt to the decisions of the local Union? As an integral part of the world church, a good case can be made that Unions and Conferences must adapt to the expressed will of the world church - if they wish to be part of it.

`G

Yes, "Trust and Obey" the GC should be our motto regardles of whether it is biblical of not!

[Nic Samojluk]

The Pacific Union Conference openly admits that according to General Conference policy each Union must operate within the guidelines that have been voted by the world church: “It is to be understood that the exercise of authority and responsibility is done within the context of the belief, values and policies of the entire church. No entity is authorized to exercise its authority and responsibility in a manner that is contrary to the interests of the whole church and and its activities in fulfilling its mission.”

I've listened to all the tired old arguments in favor of WO over the years. No matter how you look at it, this decision of the Pacific Union (and others) is still at variance with the votes of the world church at two General Conference sessions.

Simply put, it is still a sly method of rebellion against the decisions of the world church.

Be not deceived,

`oG

When Peter was ordered by the Sanhedrin to stop following orders from above, he evidently exhibited his rebellious spirit by disregarding church orders. This was a regretable action by him.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

Olger, if one's position is from the Bible, the vote of the entire world church should not change our belief.

Appealing to majority rule is not safe ground.

It is not just "majority rule" when it comes to the Church. They arrive at their decisions, and vote accordingly as a result of in-depth Bible study. When we see a "majority rule;" with The GC we are seeing evidence of the Holy Spirit speaking the same thing to different individuals...That is something we can trust!

Did Ellen White always say "Yes, sir" to the GC?

[Nic Samojluk]

I seriously doubt that is what is "fracking the church's unity". The fear of a fractured unity over this issue is greatly exaggerated.

Yes, using the fear card is quite efective sometimes.

[Nic Samojluk]

Here is an odd conundrum. Take the extreme action to put the Columbia Union in its place by disbanding it, throwing it out of the church along with each local conference that is a part of it that supports its actions. That would mean that those conferences and the churches which make up the local conferences get thrown out. Since those churches and their members would no longer be a part of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination, the churches could no longer call themselves Seventh-day Adventist churches. And their members would no longer be members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Most of the officers of the General Conference, appointed staff and support staff are members of those churches in the Columbia Union. To disband the Columbia Union would mean that they would be effectively voting themselves out of the denomination. Being a Seventh-day Adventist is a requirement to hold those positions. They would no longer be qualified to hold their positions and would need to be replaced by people who are members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

You are forgetting that there is another alternative for the Columbina Union: They can join the "Creation 7th Day Adventist Church."

[Nic Samojluk]

You are correct, but reading of the many comments comes very close to saying the same thing. If a women role is just different but excluded from WO, where is that not saying the male is better or superior in carrying out the duties of that 'ordination'? It may not be called 'absolute authority'...but what do you call it? 'Different' does not describe it!!!

I suspect that God was the firt to break the no ordination of women rule when he selected a woman to be the founder of the Adventist Church. No ordained pastor position can compare in honor to that of "messenger of the Lord."

[olger]

When I see the recent Columbia Union Visitor magazine (have it in our kitchen) I feel like I am watching a some boys on a bicycle playing chicken with a train...

The elephant in the room is that this "schism" will lead to congregationalism. I will tell you for free, that if these men go this direction, my church will vote to disregard their decision as it is in rebellion to the world church. They will sow the wind and reap the wirlwind.

The attitude displayed by these men in responsible positions is that they no longer care about this, and are confident that their Union is big enough to go it alone in spite of the world church. They think they have calculated their chances correctly, and are willing to stake their future in the work on the success of this campaign. But I believe they have foolishly miscalculated by taking God's word out of the equation.

Rejoice always,

G

[Nic Samojluk]

* The Scriptures forbid a woman to didasko a man (1 Timothy 2:12).

I guess the Lord must have overlooked this biblical text and allowed Ellen White to "didasko" the entire Aventist community--17 millions of them.

[olger]

The messenger did not create the Message.

[lazarus]

Originally Posted By: olger

* The Scriptures forbid a woman to didasko a man (1 Timothy 2:12).

I guess the Lord must have overlooked this biblical text and allowed Ellen White to "didasko" the entire Aventist community--17 millions of them.

Curiously, that is the point that is easily overlooked by WO opponents. EGW has more authority than any man in the SDA church. As one member said to me "you can make the Bible say whatever you want it to, but EGW makes it clear how we should live".

[olger]

I believe that God is the author/inspiration of both.

g

[lazarus]

.

The elephant in the room is that this "schism" will lead to congregationalism. I will tell you for free, that if these men go this direction, my church will vote to disregard their decision as it is in rebellion to the world church. They will sow the wind and reap the wirlwind.

What schism?

There is no schism.

The vote will be taken and the church will continue without so much as a hiccup in much of the union. Even in the churches around the GC this is not an issue that anyone is really talking about. The ball will be in the GC's court. The autumn council could decide to vote to reverse the Union action. That would interesting. If there's is going to be a schism GC will have to take some drastic action.

IMHO, your church can vote but it really won't make any difference. Of course you should express your displeasure. Your conference probably wouldn't even consider sending you a female pastor anyway, with or without your vote. Churches already refuse to have women pastors as they go through the pastor selection process.

My guess is that there will be those who will want to expel those Union which as Tom as already explained will present an interesting conundrum. There will be those who will want to break away because there is "apostasy" in the camp. These folk are already doing their own thing anyway.

My reading is that in the areas of Colombia Union where most of the membership is and where most of the money comes from they'll press on with the work without batting an eye-lid. If there is a split, it will be led by certain conservative groups I suspect. I'm sure Ted will remain.

The Union President of my home conference raged against black men, called to the ministry, entering the Union college seminary. They should go back home and go the seminary. He said "over my dead body" and predicted dire consequences for the church if the Union allowed black men to study at that seminary. He Died within a year or so and black men studied there. There was tumult but it came to pass.

[lazarus]

I believe that God is the author/inspiration of both.

Agreed.

[jasd]

QR frame:

Easy. Let the members who have a burden to treat each other as the Lord would - just extend their hand in a vote (which is Biblical) and 'Saint' the women (which is Biblical) to whom the HS has given unction to speak (which is Biblical). Saint Nevaeh, Saint Charisma, Saint Lis'beth, Saint Hodshodgalump, etc. Whatever. Why must it necessarily be that the term 'Ordination' apply? 'Ordination' per se is Catholic deriving from the Latin ordinare - meaning to put in order, rank, or hierarchy - a teaching of pseudepigraphals.

Its given ecclesiastical meaning is not New Testamental. In Acts 14:23 'ordination' is described with the Greek cheirotoneo Strong's 5500, which carries the meaning of stretching forth the hand to vote.

Simple. Saint them (which is Biblical).

It is enough that one is chosen (which is Biblical) It is more important to be given voice... (which is Biblical).

Following, provide the newly elect Saint a 'pulpit'; even if it must be at the potluck or in a home. Weather permitting, even a corner of the local park.

Let's remember that a woman (the Samaritan at the well) was the first whom Jesus gave leave to evangelize or announce His forthcoming ministry (which is Biblical). And, it was a woman [Mary upon His resurrection] who first evangelized or declared the risen Saviour (which is Biblical). Two women. Precedents, good peoples.

Whatever happens in home, stays in house (Vegas notwithstanding) - ...matters of the home do not often travel well to the .Org collective (which is Factual).

[teresaq]

as it is in rebellion to the world church.

Guess WO learned it from the ultra-conservatives. It has worked well for the ultras with no repercussions that I have heard about, even 12 years later.

[teresaq]

* The Scriptures forbid a woman to didasko a man (1 Timothy 2:12).

[teresaq]

Yet that is exactly what your EGW did......

[Woody]

Excellent point teresa