Leaders!

[teresaq]

You must have forgotten what you two said, somehow, since it was clearly there in black and white. Ellen White was clearly in agreement with the feminine interpreters (you guys terminology) therefore she must be a feminist, rather the HS Who inspired her must be the real Feminist. Again, I remind you, just using your own terminology. Ellen White disagreed with both you gents, and agreed with the feminists, rather the Holy Spirit Himself disagreed with you. Looks to me like you are either confused, or are trying to confuse the issue.

Part 3

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It should also be noted that feminist interpreters have often seized upon this story as a triumph of feminist ideology. In that view, Vashti is a hero for disobeying her husband in a public format.

What these hero worshippers ignore is the fact that the antihero chosen to replace Vashti was Esther. Hardly unlikely that the King would look for a Vashti clone after the way she had just punked him in public.

Well my two give-every-appearance-of-pick-and-choose-texts-and-SoP-at-your-convenience, meet another feminist. Let's hear what that Feminist the HS says: (Some of us believe the Lord spoke to Ellen White. I am one of those)

We read with pleasure of the feast of queen Vashti. This was not a feast attended by a promiscuous number, but a feast given by the queen for the women of rank in the kingdom, who were entertained with modest courtesy, without wantonness or sensuality. {3BC 1139.3}

It was when the king was not himself, when his reason was dethroned by winedrinking that he sent for the queen, that those present at his feast, men besotted by wine, might gaze on her beauty. She acted in harmony with a pure conscience. {3BC 1139.4}

Vashti refused to obey the king’s command, thinking that when he came to himself, he would commend her course of action. But the king had unwise advisers. They argued it would be a power given to woman that would be to her injury (Manuscript 29, 1911).

Had the king maintained his royal dignity by practicing habits of temperance, he would never have made this command. But his mind was affected by the wine that he had used so freely, and he was not prepared to act wisely. {3BC 1139.6}

When this command came from the king, Vashti did not carry out his orders, because she knew that wine had been freely used, and that Ahasuerus was under the influence of the intoxicating liquor. For her husband’s sake as well as her own, she decided not to leave her position at the head of the women of the court [Esther 1:12 quoted] (Manuscript 39, 1910)

There is little doubt that the king, when he afterward considered the matter, felt that Vashti deserved to be honored, rather than to be treated as she was. {3BC 1139.8}

Est 8:8 for the writing which is written in the king's name, and sealed with the king's ring, may no man reverse.

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Good point, it also shows that women had a legal standing under the law and that the king and his Persian counselors were thinking of the greater consequences to society.

This same king rounded up all the beautiful women in the kingdom, who had no say in the matter, and raped each one night after night til he settled on one of them as a replacement, like a car, and we can be quite sure he then finished raping the rest. And they better like it and not object and service him well!

Originally Posted By: olger

I understand the allegory, Doug, and see the connection. It wasn't real bright of Vashti to defy the King in public format.

She disrespected him (Ephesians 5:33).

Was he loving her? (Col. 3:19).

Esther demonstrated 1 Peter 3:1-2 in real time. Like that.

What choice did she have?

Est 4:11 All the king's servants, and the people of the king's provinces, do know, that whosoever, whether man or woman, shall come unto the king into the inner court, who is not called, [there is] one law of his to put [him] to death, except such to whom the king shall hold out the golden sceptre, that he may live: but I have not been called to come in unto the king these thirty days.

No my brothers, I don't think your use and understanding of scripture is accurate at all.

[teresaq]

It should also be acknowledged that Vashti is eagerly seized upon as a feminist hero by those inclined to do so.

M. Gendler, Harriet Beecher Stowe, Elizabeth Stanton, and Diane Tidball are in this camp.

And Ellen White.

Did you not read her thoughts in red directly above this post? Vashti was commended.

As was Abigail.

As was Sarah.

[olger]

Teresa, you are failing to make an important distinction here. Ellen White is not a feminist - not in the current use of the word. Note carefully her statement: "There is an increasing tendency to have women in their dress and appearance as near like the other sex as possible, and to fashion their dress very much like that of men, but God pronounces it abomination. 'In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety.' 1 Timothy 2:9. "Those who feel called out to join the movement in favor of woman's rights and the so-called dress reform might as well sever all connection with the third angel's message. The spirit which attends the one cannot be in harmony with the other. The Scriptures are plain upon the relations and rights of men and women." Testimonies 1, page 456

The goal of Ellen white was diametrically different than feminism !! I am puzzled that you do not see this.

Just as I agree that Xerxes was inappropriate in calling his wife in to view as an ornament, that doesn't make me a feminist. You are arguing at "nothing" here.

Ellen White is NOT a champion of:

• Gender Neutrality

  Reproductive rights (abortion on demand).

  Lesbianism (feminism supports this. I can provide examples if you would like.)

Feminism is, of course.

In summary, I like the book of Esther. I hope you do as well.

Rejoice always,

`G

[Tom Wetmore]

I think the problem is with your very narrow and distorted view of feminism.

As has been noted numerous times before, until we are working from a common understanding of key terms we only talk past each other. It is as if we are speaking a different language.

[olger]

There does seem to be a problem, and I believe it lies in the prophecies of Isaiah (5:20).

regards,

`og

[Guest]

Isaiah had a way of summing things up.

[olger]

Isaiah had a way of summing things up.

ForSooth !!!

[Tom Wetmore]

The point of Isaiah 5:20,21 is a two-edged sword. It can cut just as sharply going the other way.

And lest one get too smug about being certain of the rightness of their own POV, verse 21 provides an important caution.

[teresaq]

How long do you wish to keep this up?

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It should also be noted that feminist interpreters have often seized upon this story as a triumph of feminist ideology. In that view, Vashti is a hero for disobeying her husband in a public format.

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What these hero worshippers ignore is the fact that the antihero chosen to replace Vashti was Esther. Hardly unlikely that the King would look for a Vashti clone after the way she had just punked him in public.

I understand the allegory, Doug, and see the connection. It wasn't real bright of Vashti to defy the King in public format.

She disrespected him (Ephesians 5:33).

[Woody]

Excellent comments teresa

[teresaq]

It seems so utterly blasphemous to me to compare our great and holy God with a drunken and degenerate king. And to imply that our great and holy God is such a dictatorial control freak!

My understanding of scripture equates Satan in this role, not God.

Where could such an understanding have come from?

Originally Posted By: olger

Just as drinking alcohol is irresponsible behavior, calling his wife in to exploit her beauty was irresponsible of this man as well.

Why? HE WAS THE KING!! And he only asked his wife to show up looking queenly and beautiful. See any typology there?

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An Alcohol breeds lust, according to the Bible (Proverbs 23:33; Ephesians 5:18). That is not protecting her as a husband (house-band) should.

... He was the ruler of the world and when the wife of the ruler of the world publically tells her husband to bug off cuz she doesn't feel like being told what to do it's not a simple matter of conscience it's a matter of who's in charge here? The king's counselors made note of what would be the consequence of letting the incident slide. They were prophetic for out time. Given the heathen nature of all the involved parties they still recognized the need for respect for the husbands's role as leader.Notice that Esther was never in a leadership role but rather used her womanly influence and the king's loyalty to her to change an otherwise lethal situation. Loyalty to authority is a continuing theme in the story. It lead to the happy ending (not for Haman)when both Mordecai and Esther proved their loyalty to the king.