Riddle Me This

[Bravus]

Our equality is not built in reaction to male domination, or anything else. It is built on the purest pragmatics - it works.

[olger]

"Our" meaning Mr. and Mrs. Bravus?

Clarification good,

oG

[Bravus]

Yeah, sorry: was following up on my earlier comments about my own marriage.

Presenting this only to say that no simple rule fits everyone: absolutely not presenting it as a new simple rule.

[olger]

Simply magnificent.

[phkrause]

As to your question, male headship and male-female equality are both taught in Genesis 1-3. It's certainly nothing to be afraid of.

Why then, do some fellow church members resist this teaching so energetically? One reason is incidences of male domination asserted in the name of male headship. When truth is abused, a rival position (in this case feminism) that lacks logically compelling power can take on psychologically compelling power. But male domination is a personal moral failure, not a Biblical doctrine. Big difference between male headship and male domination.

If we define ourselves out of a reaction to bad experiences we will be forever translating our past pain into the present where it damages ourselves and others. We must define ourselves not by personal injury, or popular hysteria, but by the pattern of gender and sexual truth taught here in the Holy Scriptures. As the head, the husband bears the primary responsibility to lead their partnership in a God-glorifying direction. This is a Biblical principle that stands forever apart from changing cultures.

In a more pragmatic attempt to answer your question, men are bereft of hormonal mood swings. When the bible says women are the "weaker vessel" it indicates to me that we are both weak, one a bit more than the other. Not wrong - just different.

rejoice always,

G

Interesting post Olger, I tend to agree with you.

[olger]

Thanks Peter

[LifeHiscost]

As to your question, male headship and male-female equality are both taught in Genesis 1-3. It's certainly nothing to be afraid of.

Why then, do some fellow church members resist this teaching so energetically? One reason is incidences of male domination asserted in the name of male headship. When truth is abused, a rival position (in this case feminism) that lacks logically compelling power can take on psychologically compelling power. But male domination is a personal moral failure, not a Biblical doctrine. Big difference between male headship and male domination.

If we define ourselves out of a reaction to bad experiences we will be forever translating our past pain into the present where it damages ourselves and others. We must define ourselves not by personal injury, or popular hysteria, but by the pattern of gender and sexual truth taught here in the Holy Scriptures. As the head, the husband bears the primary responsibility to lead their partnership in a God-glorifying direction. This is a Biblical principle that stands forever apart from changing cultures.

In a more pragmatic attempt to answer your question, men are bereft of hormonal mood swings. When the bible says women are the "weaker vessel" it indicates to me that we are both weak, one a bit more than the other. Not wrong - just different.

rejoice always,

G

Very well put Og. Guess that must be because I agree. Is that called bias or truth?

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

My wife and I have found long term happiness in submitting to the Holy Spirit's efforts to change us into that which honors God, which includes giving each other total freedom of choice, without threat of mental, verbal, or physical damage. That attitude that then includes forgiveness when we fail to measure up, has allowed God to give us assurance that we will feel comfortable in His presence when Jesus comes for us.

Recognizing that this world is not where we have to stay forever and knowing the next world we are in will hold uncounted benefits without flaw, goes a long way toward our peace and happpiness together here.

"Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them." Psalm 119:165 KJV

"In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel, and you did not know the covenant promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope."Ephesians 2:12 NLT

"For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,..."Philippians 3:20 NKJV

God blesses!

[Gordon1]

...incidences of male domination..

Well said Gerry. Not sure if men are unmoved by hormones.

It's probable that much GC resistance to Women's Ordination is rooted in 'male domination' and an old-boys' mentality - with Scripture used as convenient support. Male domination, as you've termed it, is simply rebellion against God.

Men may insist upon ruling, but without changed hearts they'll not love their wives as Christ loved the Church - and they're merely repeating the Catholic error. i.e. - using their incumbent position & power to enforce the letter of the law, and this way maintain rule. (They know there's no turning back once women enter leadership).

That's the way of the world, without a view to eternal life, because not born again.

The feminist movement further divided society, a supposed reaction to male chauvinism. But Women's Lib was not based upon the Bible either, instead using the force of advertising to shape public morals. No one was liberated but rather further enslaved to drugs, rock, TV, sex, advertising.

Note that the modern SDA feminist surge also employs force. Harsh words, accusation, cutting sarcasm, denunciation - "misogynist", "old-fashioned", "old-boys' club". And political force too - lobbying, media, votes.

The use of force shows that the SDA women's rights movement has adopted the old-boy methods of Catholicism.

For many, the end justifies the means.

[Gordon1]

"Male domination"..."militant feminism": both use force & manipulation.

Both in rebellion against God's order.

[olger]

Amen, G1.

I don't know how to say this more strongly: women and men are of equal value! However, because Scripture speaks specifically to the role of pastor, churches are under a moral imperative to be guided by that teaching, rather than the shifting opinions of human cultures. Scripture assigns the role of pastor & elder to males.

For years I have watched with increasing dismay the destruction that the feminist movement has wrought in the world, in the church, in Christian homes and marriages, and in personalities. I have studied the torturous arguments of those who would persuade us that Galatians 3:28 cancels out everything the author says elsewhere in his epistles about the vital distinctions between men and women. I have listened to the endless discussions of Paul’s patriarchical prejudice and cultural insularity. I have delved into the meaning of the Greek word hupotasso (“to arrange under,” “to be under obedience,” “to put under,” “to subdue unto,” “to subject to,” “to be in subjection to,” to submit self unto”) and have on two occasions been asked to debate those who would rewrite history, literature, psychology, and the BIBLE itself to make them palatable to the woman of the late twentieth century.

In God's order, there is peace,

G

[cricket]

This thread! Hahahaha. I asked a simple question. Look where it's gone.

It's not about women's ordination. It's not about feminist movements. It's not about male domination.

I only wanted to know ONE thing. What specific, universal traits do men have (and women do not) that make men a better choice in God's eyes to lead the family?

[olger]

Why do you think God established it this way?

Why wasn't Jesus a woman?

g

[cricket]

You know, olger. It completely baffles me. I was hoping someone here could give me a reasonable answer.

[M. T. Cross]

Why do you think God established it this way?

Why wasn't Jesus a woman?

g

Because he was born into an old world culture where women where not valued as much as men where. Therefore had he been born a woman the message he had would never have reached as many as it did.

[M. T. Cross]

This thread! Hahahaha. I asked a simple question. Look where it's gone.

It's not about women's ordination. It's not about feminist movements. It's not about male domination.

I only wanted to know ONE thing. What specific, universal traits do men have (and women do not) that make men a better choice in God's eyes to lead the family?

Well depends on how you look at it. Men seem more inclined to share the OT Gods willingness to destroy and kill anyone that stands in their way or disagrees with them. Kind of the big dumb guy with lots of muscles mentality.

On the other hand if you look at the Biblical God as a nurturing and loving creator, then women are a much better choice to be the head of the family.

Which brings me to this. If you look at "God" as being a Divine force, rather than a gendered omnipotent being things start making more sense. This divine force creates (or starts the process of our evolution depending on how one views it) and imbues in our species both parts of its nature. The physically stronger, hunter/gatherer and protecter nature is stronger in males, and the creative, nurturing/caring nature is stronger in women. This was necessary in the harsher times of our species. As we progress ( I use that term loosely ) both sides of that nature start showing up more strongly in both genders. We are coming close to becoming more complete, to the point where we are more closely resembling the nature of the Creator.

So really, neither is fit to be head of the family. Both together as a partnership that becomes one cohesive union are what is needed to be the head of the family.

[Gordon1]

Hi cricket. Your question is important. I would ask it differently, but the topic should be addressed, some day, some where. One might look at creation, that the first man was created in the image of God, and this comprised both male and female.

The first woman then came out of the man. She was part of him, brought forth as his helpmeet.

We are all descendants of this couple, along with their foibles.

We read that Eve was deceived, but not Adam. (1 Timothy 2:14)

Adam showed that he loved her, but excessively, beyond what God intended. (Lovesick sentimentality above faith in God)

Adam hearkened to Eve instead of obeying God. (Genesis 3:17 - hearken : obey)

It's unlikely one can easily harmonize all aspects of human relations in a single thread.

But that's the can you've re-opened, and with good reason. How many millions have asked a similar question?

The Bible holds all answers. None of the churches will address your question.

But they should, as the future happiness of many is affected.

It's a deep matter stretching from Genesis to our day, to know what God intended.

What would you consider 'a reasonable answer' ?

Have you asked your husband?

[phkrause]

If you look at the way the Jewish family is structured. You have the Man as the spiritual leader and the woman is the in charge of the home. Of course that's in today's world not back in Jesus' day. But if we go back to the book of Genesis we that statement that God made to Adam and Eve after they allowed sin to enter this world, it seems to me this is exactly what God had in mind. The problem is man defind it his way and woman became a second class citizen.

[cricket]

A reasonable answer is one that goes something like this:

God chose men to be the head of the family because men are (fill in the blank), and women do not have this trait.

My husband gives answers like those here: "Men are stronger, men are not swayed by emotion, men are logical--but, I don't believe that a man is the head of the household, it is both the man and the woman."

I have a feeling I'm never going to get a straightforward answer.

And that's fine.

[Gail]

This thread! Hahahaha. I asked a simple question. Look where it's gone.

It's not about women's ordination. It's not about feminist movements. It's not about male domination.

I only wanted to know ONE thing. What specific, universal traits do men have (and women do not) that make men a better choice in God's eyes to lead the family?

One thing that I appreciate about a good husband is that he will put his life on the line for his family and do what is needed to preserve the well-being of the family unit. A woman can do this very well, also, but I appreciate when men do it to the protection of the woman and children. Men have a good measure of risk-taking-ness and spirit of adventure that I as a woman am not quite as good at.

[Gordon1]

...answers like those here: "Men are stronger, men are not swayed by emotion, men are logical"...

[cricket]

As God is all-knowing, from start to finish, it's certain he foresaw each situation.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

In God's order, there is peace,

All warfare between humans is a result of determining for others that our own way, when different than their's, is the right way and takes precedence, often with the mistaken opinion

that because the Holy Spirit chooses to work in a different way than was before ordered, it must be of the devil.

Tell me which commandment of God that is being broken when we let another see God's will being accomplished through acceptance of a position different than in the past and I'll point out the reasonableness of salvation by our works.

When men fulfill their rightful positions before God in the manner that glorifies Him, then it won't be necessary for single mothers to worry if they're transgressing God's command when stepping up to the plate in the rearing of their children.

God blesses!