Second Coming & Beyond

[Samie]

Hi Forum mates; here's another chart for your perusal and evaluation:

Can anyone find anything in it inconsistent with what the Bible says?

[Windsor]

There are so many inconsistencies I don't know where to begin but I'll randomly start with how your chart appears to show the saints in Heaven during the plagues.

“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” Revelation 16:15

If the saints are in Heaven during the sixth plague, who exactly is the blessed person on Earth who keeps his garments?

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 2nd Peter 3:10

Here is a clear reference to the Lord coming as a thief. He does not come as a thief twice but once.

[Samie]

There are so many inconsistencies I don't know where to begin but I'll randomly start with how your chart appears to show the saints in Heaven during the plagues.

“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” Revelation 16:15

If the saints are in Heaven during the sixth plague, who exactly is the blessed person on Earth who keeps his garments?

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 2nd Peter 3:10

Here is a clear reference to the Lord coming as a thief. He does not come as a thief twice but once.

Windsor;

The declaration in Rev 16:15 is designed for everyone to warn each of us of the soon coming of our Lord and what lifestyle are we supposed to have in preparation for His return, for like the coming of a thief, we don't know when will it be. It was not merely written there to be pronounced during the outpouring of the plagues; that would be too late a warning.

To make that verse as basis for the position that the 7 last plagues will be poured out before the 2nd Coming will produce more inconsistencies than it can solve.

Example: Only a small portion of the wicked will suffer the 7 last plagues which is the fulfillment of the wrath of God because only the wicked alive at its outpouring will suffer it. Scriptures explicitly tell us all wicked will suffer it (Rom 2:5-8)

I suggest we take up the "so many inconsistencies" you see in my chart one at a time. We proceed with the next after we settle this first issue.

Thanks for the time for letting me discuss with you.

[Samie]

I guess Windsor had been busy; hope he returns to this thread and post the other inconsistencies he said he found in the chart of the OP. While waiting for his return, here's Scriptural proof the 7 last plagues will be poured out after the 2nd Coming when all wicked in their graves had been resurrected and the saints are already in heaven:

1. That all - both the righteous and wicked dead - will be resurrected when Christ comes again is a fact referred to in Dan 12:1, 2 and in John 5:28, 29. We are sure the resurrection in Dan 12:2 is the 2nd Coming because verse 1 portrays it will occur at the period where there likewise previously occurred the Time of Trouble which the Lord in Matt 24 similarly described as the Great Tribulation which He said will occur and end just a short time before the 2nd Coming.

2. That the resurrection in Dan 12:2 is not just a special resurrection because Christ had emphatically said in John 5:28, 29 that ALL, not just some, in the graves will hear His voice and come forth from their graves, both righteous and wicked.

3. That the resurrection of the righteous comes first before the resurrection of the wicked during the 2nd Coming is made evident by Scriptural pronouncement in 1 Thes 4:16, 17 that the dead in Christ shall rise first, and that this is the First Resurrection of Rev 20:6 where all who have part in it will not be hurt by the 2nd death. This fact nullifies the claim about a special resurrection where those who pierced Christ and some other wicked will be specially resurrected and along with the resurrected righteous will see Him come, because they will then be among those in the First Resurrection as well who will not be hurt by the 2nd death but will reign with Christ during the Millennium.

4. The fact that all dead will be resurrected complements Jesus' statements in Matt 16:27 and Rev 22:12 that when He comes again He will reward every man according to what each has done. The fact that every man will be rewarded necessitates that every man need to be resurrected and with the living be present to receive his own reward. This is further reinforced by Romans 2:5-8 that tells us of a day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God where He will reward every man according to what each has done: eternal life for the righteous, and wrath of God for the wicked. Rev 15:1 tells us the fulfillment of the wrath of God is the 7 last plagues.

5. Rev 15: 2-7 clearly tells us that the saints are already in heaven standing in the sea of glass and singing their victory song before the 7 vials of the 7 last plagues were given to the 7 angels and the subsequent command in Rev 16:1 issued to the 7 angels for the plagues to be poured out upon the wicked on earth.

6. That indeed all wicked had been resurrected and rewarded with the 7 last plagues is made evident by what transpired under the 3rd plague. Rev 16:4-7 records that those who killed the prophets of God are among those made to drink blood. Jezebel killed the prophets of God as recorded in 1 Kings 18:4, 13 and she had been long dead. Jesus in Matt 23:30,31 & Luke 11:47-50 also mentioned prophet-killers already dead. The fact that they will suffer the 3rd plague proves the wicked had been resurrected and accordingly rewarded. This fact likewise precludes the claim that the 7 last plagues will be poured before the 2nd Coming because Jezebel and the prophet-killers Jesus mentioned, still dead by then, cannot suffer the plagues.

7. The presence of the righteous in heaven while the wicked are made to suffer the plagues is also made evident in Rev 19. v1 tells of much people in heaven proclaiming in v2 that the great whore, Babylon, had been judged and that the saints had been avenged. This judgment is spoken of in the 7th plague as recorded in Rev 16:19. Since Rev 19:6-9 tells these people in heaven are to attend the marriage of the Lamb, the fact that they are in heaven at the time the great whore had been judged referred to in the 7th plague, coupled with the fact that before the plagues are poured upon the wicked on earth they are already seen standing on the sea of glass as per Rev 15:2-8, proves that the saints are in heaven throughout the outpouring of the plagues.

Scriptures have spoken.

[Gibs]

Oops on this one, Samie,

"1. That all - both the righteous and wicked dead - will be resurrected when Christ comes again is a fact referred to in Dan 12:1, 2 and in John 5:28, 29. We are sure the resurrection in Dan 12:2 is the 2nd Coming because verse 1 portrays it will occur at the period where there likewise previously occurred the Time of Trouble which the Lord in Matt 24 similarly described as the Great Tribulation which He said will occur and end just a short time before the 2nd Coming."

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

Oops on this one, Samie,

"1. That all - both the righteous and wicked dead - will be resurrected when Christ comes again is a fact referred to in Dan 12:1, 2 and in John 5:28, 29. We are sure the resurrection in Dan 12:2 is the 2nd Coming because verse 1 portrays it will occur at the period where there likewise previously occurred the Time of Trouble which the Lord in Matt 24 similarly described as the Great Tribulation which He said will occur and end just a short time before the 2nd Coming."

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I have covered that issue, brother, in #3. The reason why in the 2nd Coming there's a FIRST, must necessitate a NEXT also in the 2nd Coming. Otherwise, every man will not be rewarded when Christ comes again as He promised He will.

And Yes, the wicked will be resurrected again after the Millennium, because they will all be slain at the Battle of Armageddon at the conclusion of the 7 last plagues before the start of the Millennium.