The wages of "sin"

[M. T. Cross]

So the Bible says that the wages of sin is death.

So what if Adam and Eve had not sinned? Would humans have then been immortal?

What if they had not sinned but one of their offspring did? Would all of mankind been lost to sin and punished with death?

Did this immortality apply to animals as well?

If there had not been sin and therefor no death where would we have put everyone? The world would have been overcrowded a long time ago.

If one lives a sinless life does that mean that they will not age and die?

[Gerr]

It is not written....

[M. T. Cross]

There in lies the problem Gerry.

An explanation of how it all works if we are "bad" and "sin".

But there is no explanation of how it works if we obey. No explanation on how it could have been. Possibly if that was given it would drive people to hate sin that much more.

Also missing is an explanation on why all of our species through all of time must suffer for the mistake of two people.

Part of my point is this. We are asked to accept what IS written as the truth. These are the consequences. But there is no flip side. Its incomplete. It explains a little small part of the puzzle. I really question why anyone of reasonable intellegence can blindly accept that as the "truth". Yet millions do and billions have. It boggles my mind.

[Windsor]

There are millions of possible scenarios. Woulda, coulda, shoulda, didn't. Rest assured, if there is something that God thinks we NEED to know, He would have assuredly told us. For me, all questions are answered with the realization that even God Himself came down to this earth and was hung on a now "empty cross" and if there was any other possible way to have saved us, to have put an end to sin, He would have done it.

[M. T. Cross]

There are millions of possible scenarios. Woulda, coulda, shoulda, didn't.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Windsor

There are millions of possible scenarios. Woulda, coulda, shoulda, didn't.

Really there isn't. There is what would happened without sin and there is what would happen with sin. Either he had a plan for success or we were doomed to fail.

We will know soon enough what its like in the earth made new EC. I believe had Adam and Eve not sinned, they would've stayed in the Garden and let me say it, yes we would've been immortal, I believe. But to speculate if someone else would've sinned, I wont go there. Thing is we did sin and here we are.

[Windsor]

There are three types of information presented in the Bible. First, there is the obvious type where few people disagree on the meaning, though with six billion people, no matter how plainly God were to put it, there will always be some debate.

Then there is the hidden type that God wants us to know but He doesn't want to hand to us on a silver platter either. He wants us to diligently search the scriptures so this type of information is kept hidden from the unbelievers.

"And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that

‘Seeing they may not see,

And hearing they may not understand." - Luke 8:10

Finally there is the type of information that we don't need to know because it is not essential to our salvation even though you may see Christians foolishly debating it.

"As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith." - I Timothy 1:3-4.

[M. T. Cross]

So he wants everyone to follow him and worship him, but hides meanings that are only revealed once you are already his?

Seems to me that those secrets, the mysteries of the Kingdom of God, are the very ones that have everyone arguing and name calling etc. Yet these are the people that sincerely love him and try to follow his way. But these things are still quite obviously being kept secret from them.

[Overaged]

So the Bible says that the wages of sin is death.

[Overaged]

There in lies the problem Gerry.

An explanation of how it all works if we are "bad" and "sin".

But there is no explanation of how it works if we obey. No explanation on how it could have been. Possibly if that was given it would drive people to hate sin that much more.

[Overaged]

Some things are "mysteries;" but different reasons for different people. It is mostly us that are the problem; not God. IMHO.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

So the Bible says that the wages of sin is death.

yes, it does say this my friend. But there IS more written in that verse, that you referred to. Might be good to bring that to the table here as well; and see if it paints a different picture? What think ye?

[Overaged]

Two things.

1/ How do you know that in a perfect world, we would be "breeding" or that this "breeding" would infact cause "overcrowding?" Does this mean that you know exactly what such a world would be like? I am trying to figure how/why you can say this with such authority...lol, as if you and I have got any, eh?

2/ You appear to equate "faith" with "trust" I would love to pick your mind about that a bit.

a) do you see faith as a solution or a problem? Do you have "faith?" Where did you get it from?

Is faith always a matter of "trust?" Why, or why not? I know myself, it has not always been a matter of trust, but a matter of duty...or obligation.

[M. T. Cross]

Two things.

1/ How do you know that in a perfect world, we would be "breeding" or that this "breeding" would infact cause "overcrowding?" Does this mean that you know exactly what such a world would be like? I am trying to figure how/why you can say this with such authority...lol, as if you and I have got any, eh?

2/ You appear to equate "faith" with "trust" I would love to pick your mind about that a bit.

a) do you see faith as a solution or a problem? Do you have "faith?" Where did you get it from?

Is faith always a matter of "trust?" Why, or why not? I know myself, it has not always been a matter of trust, but a matter of duty...or obligation.

[Samie]

Hi EmptyCross, let me be a fool by pretending to know the answers to your questions:

So the Bible says that the wages of sin is death.

So what if Adam and Eve had not sinned? Would humans have then been immortal?

[Gibs]

Question is, when do you think God would have ended man's ability to pro-create? I've heard it said, until the host of fallen angels was made up.

Anything on that anyone.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[CoAspen]

I love looking at the Universe as seen through the 'eye' of the Hubble Tele. How big is big!!!! I don't limit God to my own limited imagination or the mind of an ancient writer.

There is a lot 'space' to expand into out there!!!

[M. T. Cross]

Thank you for some interesting answers Samie.

Quote:

Except Adam & Eve and their other offsprings who did not sin. But starting from him who sinned will be in the same situation of Adam & Eve when they sinned and all their descendants will be like we are now. Why? Because Scriptures make clear that him who sinned is accountable for the sin he committed (Ezek 18:20), this is why it is him who sinned, who in the Old Covenant, brings the sin offering for his own sin (Lev 4 & 5). And since him who sinned is now separate from God, his descendants will likewise all be born separated from God, like all of us now, had not God Himself, through Christ, made a way for our reinstatement (see Rom 5:12-19).

If that were the case that would have made for an interesting situation. The sinners and the non sinners inhabiting the same space.

I also find it interesting that you thing animals would have died. So you think we would have seen death? We would have experienced sorrow like that?

I appreciate your thoughts on the idea that we could have been moved to other planets. Its one of the most reasonable ideas on the whole thing.

[M. T. Cross]

I love looking at the Universe as seen through the 'eye' of the Hubble Tele. How big is big!!!! I don't limit God to my own limited imagination or the mind of an ancient writer.

There is a lot 'space' to expand into out there!!!

Thats kinda what I am asking here. What was the plan, cause there must have been one if death was not part of the picture.

[Windsor]

EmptyCross,

Does God hide anything essential for our salvation? Absolutely not. But for example if God gave us prophecies that said things like "In the year 1776, a nation called the United States will declare its independence from Great Britain. In the year 2015 after a huge earthquake destroys the entire West Coast of the nation, the antichrist named Bob Smith will arise." Well, I think you can see where spelling it out like that could be a problem. God hides certain things within symbols for a reason. That reason is always for our benefit. It isn't arbitrary. Wouldn't you keep certain things hidden from your own children until such time as they are ready to handle it while not hiding anything that will keep them from dying?

[Samie]

Thank you for some interesting answers Samie.

Quote:

Except Adam & Eve and their other offsprings who did not sin. But starting from him who sinned will be in the same situation of Adam & Eve when they sinned and all their descendants will be like we are now. Why? Because Scriptures make clear that him who sinned is accountable for the sin he committed (Ezek 18:20), this is why it is him who sinned, who in the Old Covenant, brings the sin offering for his own sin (Lev 4 & 5). And since him who sinned is now separate from God, his descendants will likewise all be born separated from God, like all of us now, had not God Himself, through Christ, made a way for our reinstatement (see Rom 5:12-19).

If that were the case that would have made for an interesting situation. The sinners and the non sinners inhabiting the same space.

[OzarkWoman]

Yes, the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Without sin there would be no death, no separation from God, the source of life (see John 1:4, Colossians 1:17). If there was no death until sin, then that would seem to include plants and animals as well. How that works when animals and people ate fruits, grains, and nuts in the garden before sin, I don't know.

In Romans 8:19-22 Paul says that all of creation is "groaning" with humanity in the bitter experience of sin and longs for God's redemption. And if Revelation 20:14, 21:4 are true, then death will not exist in God's new heaven and new earth. And we understand that death-free existence to apply to the animal kingdom as well. Isaiah 11:6-9 says that the wolf will live with the lamb - and that "they will neither harm nor destroy on all My holy mountain..."

As for population control, if God can create the world out of nothing in six days, and have the plan of salvation clearly laid out before that creation began (Revelation 13:8) then it would seem to me that the potential for over-crowding would probably be mapped out as well.

[JoeMo]

Greetings!

This is a very interesting discussion - one I have with my wife and friends frequently. We have never come up with any satisfying answers. I think one reason is that no one (except Adam and Eve for a short time) has ever seen a perfect and sinless society. In my wildest dreams, I cannot even fathom a society where there is never EVER any strife, disagreement, or sin. With billions of inhabitants on the New Earth (or in a new universe), it seems impossible that no one would ever even have bad feelings, negative emotions, or sinful thoughts about another person throughout the countless ages of eternity. My paradigm of living on a sinful planet for over 60 years; and being both an originator and victim of sin just doesn't allow for it.

Some things I have come to believe:

1. "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world." (Rev. 13:8)

This verse tells me that God knew from the very beginning that we would fall; and that He knew from the beginning what the end would be like. (That makes perfect sense if one believes that God has always known everything.) Yet He chose to create us anyways. He has a plan!

2. A lot (I would say most) bad things that happen on earth are a direct result of man exercising his free will - something that God rarely if ever interferes with. God did not start WW1 or WW2 - people did. God did not take down the WTC towers - terrorists did. God does not kill millions of unborn children every year - people do. God does not invade home to rob and kill people - criminal people do. A question I have is - does God puposely limit His power to interve in humanity out of His respect for our free will - evil though it may be? (I concede that devastating natual disasters may not fit this model.)

3. God's wisdom is beyond our understanding - especially since he knows the future. Was the flood the result of God's wrath; or was He saving humanity from utter and complete destruction by the Nephilim? "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time." (Gen.6:4-5) Did God call for the destruction of many people groups because he intrinsically hated them, or because, had He let them live, they would have totally destoyed humanity?

I don't have the ultimate answers; and I don't understand everything. I can't even perceive of how things would look in a sinless universe. I am anxious to find out, though. It's gotta be better than what we are going through now!

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

I surmise another scenario would have occurred. Instead of sinners and non-sinners inhabiting the same space called earth, God would have done to those who did not fall into sin what He did with Enoch:

Quote:

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

This just proves it is not God's way that sinners and saints would co-inhabit the same space.

Yet oddly enough the Books of Enoch are not included in the Bible.

*side note* I do not recommend sitting and reading them from start to finish without a break. Your head will hurt, your brain will feel scrambled and you will be looking for a therapist

Quote:

Death of animals maybe, but sorrow, I doubt. It is sin that causes sorrow (Jer 18:23) and in the absence of sin, there could be no sorrow.

I am having a hard time wrapping my head around that. The loss of life is a thing of sorrow - animal or human. IMO

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

This is a very interesting discussion - one I have with my wife and friends frequently. We have never come up with any satisfying answers. I think one reason is that no one (except Adam and Eve for a short time) has ever seen a perfect and sinless society. In my wildest dreams, I cannot even fathom a society where there is never EVER any strife, disagreement, or sin. With billions of inhabitants on the New Earth (or in a new universe), it seems impossible that no one would ever even have bad feelings, negative emotions, or sinful thoughts about another person throughout the countless ages of eternity. My paradigm of living on a sinful planet for over 60 years; and being both an originator and victim of sin just doesn't allow for it.

I agree it is hard to wrap ones head around. We as humans are tied down in our way of thinking. We are caught up in the ideas of time, beginnings, endings, rules, regulations,and impossibilities.

I would like to ask you what you mean by a new universe. Do you mean the current universe re-done or an alternate universe other than the one we live in?

Quote:

1. "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world." (Rev. 13:8)

This verse tells me that God knew from the very beginning that we would fall; and that He knew from the beginning what the end would be like. (That makes perfect sense if one believes that God has always known everything.) Yet He chose to create us anyways. He has a plan!

There is a case of perception. You seem to see the fact that he created us anyways as a beautiful thing. I on the other hand think that if he knew we would fall and knew that there would be so much suffering and horror then creating us was one of the most sadistic things ever.

But then I don't believe in the divine power or creation the way you do so I am spared thinking it was a sadistic act.

Quote:

2. A lot (I would say most) bad things that happen on earth are a direct result of man exercising his free will - something that God rarely if ever interferes with. God did not start WW1 or WW2 - people did. God did not take down the WTC towers - terrorists did. God does not kill millions of unborn children every year - people do. God does not invade home to rob and kill people - criminal people do. A question I have is - does God puposely limit His power to interve in humanity out of His respect for our free will - evil though it may be? (I concede that devastating natual disasters may not fit this model.)

I agree that the acts of horror on our earth are not the acts of God(s). Humans are a twisted sick species of mammals.

Unless......

Lets look at the great wars that have been fought in the name of God. The inquisitions, the crusades etc. Those wars were fought and atrocities committed by warriors claiming to be doing the bidding of God. Now why would we doubt that yet believe that the things the Israelites did were the divine will of their God?

I guess this is where I have a huge problem with the Biblical God. Since the time the children of Abraham were freed from Egypt until today untold acts of war and cruelty have been done in his name. Some to pagan/heathen people and even more between sects of his followers to fellow sects of his followers. Why does he not step up and make it clear which side is right and which side is wrong?

Quote:

3. God's wisdom is beyond our understanding - especially since he knows the future. Was the flood the result of God's wrath; or was He saving humanity from utter and complete destruction by the Nephilim? "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time." (Gen.6:4-5) Did God call for the destruction of many people groups because he intrinsically hated them, or because, had He let them live, they would have totally destoyed humanity?

If only Noahs family survived how were the Nephilim on the planet after the flood?

Quote:

I don't have the ultimate answers; and I don't understand everything. I can't even perceive of how things would look in a sinless universe. I am anxious to find out, though. It's gotta be better than what we are going through now!

I could not agree more! I doubt we see the concept of sin the same way, but I would be anxious to see what life could be without pain and suffering, cruelty and disease (body and mind)