olger Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 http://advindicate.com/?p=1592 A well researched and compelling article - hot off the griddle. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
CoAspen Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 Depends on the definition of 'research'! The standard definition leads one to expect facts, stats, supporting data and non-editorializing. One example is the use of labeling those in support of WO as liberals and churches with such being on the road to accepting homosexuality in leadership. No supporting data for such, just innuendo. They presented their case alright, but basically it was an editorial, not research. Quote
doug yowell Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 Depends on the definition of 'research'! The standard definition leads one to expect facts, stats, supporting data and non-editorializing. One example is the use of labeling those in support of WO as liberals and churches with such being on the road to accepting homosexuality in leadership. No supporting data for such, just innuendo. They presented their case alright, but basically it was an editorial, not research. Sure,let's just ignore ELCA,United Methodists,Episcopal,Church of Christ,ect...ect... and continue to insist that the Holy Spirit is responsible for also moving us, decades later, into a unique,deeper, more enlightened obedience.Keep pretending that those churches that were "moved" to WO decades before us don't exist. Quote
teresaq Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 Quote: ...not a doctrinal issue. This is perhaps not surprising, because although the Bible has much to say about the roles of the sexes, the Seventh-day Adventist Church has had little to say; we have not formulated a doctrine of sex roles. But the present crisis demonstrates that it is now necessary to do so; neglect is no longer an option. As a church, we need to familiarize ourselves with what Scripture teaches about sex roles. Depends on how you look at it I guess. Interestingly, these very ones seem quite eager to manipulate us into their views, according to the couple of papers I have read--and without consulting with their brethern, and coming to an agreed stance, before teaching such. Some statements lead me to believe the early SDA church did have an understanding regarding men/women tho not stated as a "doctrine", rather more according to the spirit of the scriptures, apparently, than the "letter of the law". As summarized here, while I am in the process of collecting all relevant statements by the pioneers: Quote: The Abiding Gift of Prophecy p. 295 (General Conference Archives) There is not a line in all her (EGW) writings giving the slightest intimation that she was the head of any church. She repudiated the statements and charges of this sort made by others. She stands in the line of prophets and apostles. Not one of them claimed the headship of the people of God. All recognized Christ as the sovereign Head. Quote: Review and Herald for 1869 - Vol. 33 - No. 12 LOVE OF THE WORLD.* BY ELD. JAMES WHITE. If he ... had clearly seen God's plan in the beginning, that one man and one woman only should constitute the head of every family.... Yet, we have this, from the same site, not wanting women to share in what they term "headship" roles, Quote: .... women in headship roles. Female headship has ... This is one of several thoughts by our pioneers regarding "headship" by any other than Christ. Quote: http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH18960721-V73-29__B/index... The whole papal theory of the supremacy of Peter, from which the supremacy of the popes of Rome is maintained, has no foundation in the Scriptures. Its foundation is a conglomeration of tradition, fraud, and presumption. Still further, it may be said that a universal headship of the church, whether of the pope, or of any other person or persons, aside from the actual and Scriptural headship of Christ, is not only unscriptural, but it is an actual contravention of the whole genius and spirit of Christianity. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
teresaq Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 That leads to the question of when did the SDA church lose its original stance and start taking on what a few are attempting to bring into the church? Was it some time after some of our people started going to Calvinist/Jesuit seminaries? Is this a deliberate refusal to look deeper with all their brethern into the scriptures used? Our pioneers did not seem to see these scriptures the same way. http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/348544/Our_Pioneers_and_Women.html#Post348544 Quote: The Twelve Disciples chosen by Jesus were all men. They were also all blood Jews. Quote: When lots were cast to replace Judas Iscariot, both of the candidates were men. They were also all blood Jews. Nary a Godly Samaritan, nor Roman such as the centurion was chosen. Saul/Paul, picked by Christ Himself, was a Jew. So every "headship" in the church needs to be filled by a male blood Jew, perhaps full-blooded only is allowed. Quote: When deacons were chosen to perform some of the practical tasks of the church, the seven appointed to the office of deacon were men. Blood Jew only for deacons. Quote: Both the office of episkopēs (“bishop” or “overseer”) and deacon are described as male offices, to be filled by sober men Well so much for Phebe, whichever she might have been. Not to mention when Willie White, Ellen White's son, ordained women deaconesses. Gets rid of Ellen White also, cause a true prophet would have known that was wrong and would have spoken up about something so serious! Nor did she speak out against women being licensed ministers. If this is as serious our dear brethern would have us believe, Ellen White couldn't possibly be a prophet not having spoken against these things on the one hand, and commending Sister Caro on the other, a licensed minister. Quote: and capable husbands, fathers, and heads of their families. 1 Tim. 3; Titus 1:5-9. In 1 Timothy 3, Paul makes clear that capable leadership of the family is a prerequisite to leadership in the church: “He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?)” 1Tim 5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. Quote: Guide: Thayer's lexicon: 1) to be master (or head) of a house 2) to rule a household, manage family affairs Well that's interesting. Looks like we have 2 co-rulers in this house. Who gonna be the boss? Oops both are...problem here...Oh yeah, the Lord said, Submit ye one to another", "wives submit to your husbands", "husbands love your wives. 2 rulers, problem solved. Guess Elder White and our pioneers understood all along. Quote: clearly seen God's plan in the beginning, that one man and one woman only should constitute the head of every family... Maybe its these yunguns aint quite gettin' it. We always think we know better than our parents now don't we? :) Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
doug yowell Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 The whole papal theory of the supremacy of Peter, from which the supremacy of the popes of Rome is maintained, has no foundation in the Scriptures. Its foundation is a conglomeration of tradition, fraud, and presumption. Still further, it may be said that a universal headship of the church, whether of the pope, or of any other person or persons, aside from the actual and Scriptural headship of Christ, is not only unscriptural, but it is an actual contravention of the whole genius and spirit of Christianity. Great red herring, but this quote is not talking about the same Biblical teaching of "headship" that Ellen White referred to in her letter to Mary What's-her-name.If there is no headship in the family then there is no headship anywhere. What if we change the term to simply Lord? What does James White say about anyone calling anyone else "Lord" in the church?Or instead of Adventists traditionally pushing distinctive roles within the church body we began to advocate that women obey their husbands? The non-supremicist,Peter, did mention that Christian wives should "OBEY" their husbands and that godly Sarah called her man "Lord" (even though she bossed him around all the time}? Kinda condescending don't ya think? Quote
teresaq Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 Where in the article or in my response to the article did you see anyone addressing what you seem to believe EGW meant in her statement? So I bounce the "red herring" back into your lap where it belongs. Quote: http://advindicate.com/?p=1592The issue that has crystallized is female headship in the Adventist Church at the level of conference president and higher. ...for women in headship roles. Female headship... ...headship in the church, it follows that headship in the church... Quote: The Abiding Gift of Prophecy p. 295 (General Conference Archives) There is not a line in all her (EGW) writings giving the slightest intimation that she was the head of any church. She repudiated the statements and charges of this sort made by others. She stands in the line of prophets and apostles. Not one of them claimed the headship of the people of God. All recognized Christ as the sovereign Head. .... women in headship roles. Female headship has ... Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
olger Posted July 17, 2012 Author Posted July 17, 2012 The Episcopalian church is on the decline, according to several of their websites. This is in spite of their support for female headship and gay clergy. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 17, 2012 Administrators Posted July 17, 2012 OK, let's continue that game of connect the random dots... The Catholic Church is in decline too. And this is in spite of their very firm opposition to women clergy and gay marriage. Or... The growth of the Adventist Church in North America is failing to grow even at the rate of population growth, i.e., on the decline. This is in spite of their support of the seventh day Sabbath. Or... The LDS is the fastest growing Christian denomination according to Wikipedia. This is in spite of their Sunday keeping... OK. Whose turn is next? Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
nuff sed Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 What happened to the report that I read lately that the Seventh-day Adventist Church was the fastest growing religious body in the US??? "Adventists' back-to-basics faith is fastest growing U.S. church ... www.usatoday.com/news/.../2011-03-18-Adventists_17_ST_N.htm " Nuff Sed Quote
teresaq Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 The Episcopalian church is on the decline, according to several of their websites. This is in spite of their support for female headship and gay clergy. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
teresaq Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 What happened to the report that I read lately that the Seventh-day Adventist Church was the fastest growing religious body in the US??? "Adventists' back-to-basics faith is fastest growing U.S. church ...www.usatoday.com/news/.../2011-03-18-Adventists_17_ST_N.htm " Nuff Sed Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
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