Asiyreh Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 Hi guys I'm new,new to the forums and new to Adventism. I'm currently testing out the idea of soul sleep on some of my Christian friends however I seem to have encountered a bit of a problem. Quote: Luke 16:19-31 The Rich Man and Lazarus 19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” I love the idea guys so I don't need convinced myself,the thought of ghosts walking about always freaked me out a little. It's much more comfortable having this opinion. Anyways what I'm looking for is some way to defend the doctrine in light of this verse. Any ideas would be much appreciated. Quote Come out and be ye separate.
Woody Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 Very Cool that you are questioning things such as this. Good Question. Just be prepared to have a question asked for your question. lol Okay - let me ask. What do you think the following is saying? : "‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ Have no fear - I suspect many more will follow me. Also - one needs to ask how this squares with the rest of scripture. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Asiyreh Posted July 24, 2012 Author Posted July 24, 2012 Quote: What do you think the following is saying? : "‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ Amm I'm not sure what you mean exactly. Ok it's some type of reference to hell. He's asking for pity from Abraham. Ahhhh again I'm not sure what you mean. What do you think it's saying? Quote: Also - one needs to ask how this squares with the rest of scripture. True that. But you know the way these guys are, they get one verse and take hold of it. It doesn't really help that it's Christ who's speaking about the topic. Quote Come out and be ye separate.
Moderators Gerr Posted July 24, 2012 Moderators Posted July 24, 2012 1. Lk 16:9ff is part of a series of parables that started in Lk 14. 2. If poor man Lazarus & the rich man is to be taken literally, then Abraham's bosom (Gk actually means bosom and not side) is to be taken literally. That's a ridiculous thought. So instead of the saved going to heaven, they go to Abraham's "bosom". 3. Who wants to go to a heaven where you can hear the screams of billions of burning people begging for water? What if some of those are your parents or children? How can you enjoy heaven? 4. Preponderance of Scripture. Death is repeatedly referred to as "sleep". 5. If I were Lazarus in Jn 11 who died, and if he had been enjoying heaven and got called back to earth, I would be livid! But Jesus said, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps." 6. The "dead know nothing" and you know the rest. 7. The Greek for 'hell' in this parable is Hades, which in Greek mythology is the place of the dead. Quote
Woody Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 Thanks Asiyreh. I guess my question was more along the lines of - do we take this verse literally or figuratively? In other words - What will the water on the tip of a finger do for this "man in Hell" ? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 Actually - this verse gives me an important example of Jesus meeting people where they are at. Jesus spoke in the language of His day. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Asiyreh Posted July 24, 2012 Author Posted July 24, 2012 Ok thanks guys that should help, in response to your last comment there though Woody:- but didn't the Sagasis hold to this belief or something similar? Isn't that kind of verifying this belief? Quote Come out and be ye separate.
Woody Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 Ok thanks guys that should help, in response to your last comment there though Woody:- but didn't the Sagasis hold to this belief or something similar? Isn't that kind of verifying this belief? Yes. That was the belief of the time. However - I view it as positive that Jesus would speak to them in their language. And I don't believe they felt He was verifying it. I suspect they got the message. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Asiyreh Posted July 25, 2012 Author Posted July 25, 2012 parable.... I guess that confirms it then Quote Come out and be ye separate.
Robert Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Originally Posted By: Robert parable.... I guess that confirms it then Read Gerry's post. Here's the problem with the heresy of the immortal soul - it attacks the gospel. According to the Bible mankind is born indwelt by iniquity - he's born bent-to-self. Agape is opposite - it is not self-seeking. Because we are born with this indwelling bent the Apostle Paul states that there's nothing good in our humanity. See Romans 7:18 If you teach that there is something immortal & good in our humanity then that part of us doesn't need Christ's redemption. Hence this heresy denies mankind's total depravity and Christ's righteousness as his only hope. Quote
Asiyreh Posted July 25, 2012 Author Posted July 25, 2012 Yes Gerry's post was the most helpful thanks Gerry and all. Agape - we learned about that last week at Sabbath. Christ asks Peter do you love me with Agape love. But Peter only love him with with phileo love. Yes I thought that was very interesting. Ok back to Gerry's post. Gerry said that the reference to Hades was being used here and that this was Greek Mythology. However this word Hades, is used more than this one time is it not? I thought that word pretty much was the Greek word for hell in the New testament. Quote Come out and be ye separate.
Moderators Gerr Posted July 26, 2012 Moderators Posted July 26, 2012 There are a few Hebrew & Greek words that are translated by different Bible versions as 'hell'. 1. Sheol - most commonly used for the grave. 2. Gehenna - of Hebrew derivation and is most commonly used for hell fire in the NT. 3. Hades - place for the dead in Greek mythology 4. Tartarus - also Greek, also used for hell fire. Quote
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