Paul vs. James?

[Robert]

Rom 3:28 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."

James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

On the surface these two statements seem diametrically opposed. However, a close look reveals that Paul & James are dealing with two different problems.

Paul is writing of justification by "works of the law" while James is writing of "works".

Paul denies that anyone will ever get to heaven by keeping the law, for ALL believers are falling short of God's goodness. Remember that the law is more than just ten brief rules, it is spiritual.

On the other hand, James is stating that genuine justification by faith produces a change in the believer so that fruit is seen in the life. No, it does not fulfill ALL the requirements of the law to love totally selflessly, but it does witness to our relationship to Christ.

Does God use our works in the judgement?

“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” 1 John 5:28,29

Yes, God does use our works - but it’s not what you might be thinking. He does not compare our bad works to our good ones and the pile that’s the greatest decides our destiny. God is not interested if we measure up to the law’s demands (for none of us do), He is interested in the fruit that comes from a relationship with Him.

Bad fruit, i.e., self-righteous fruit, comes a legalistic relationship – one where the believer sees heaven through a set of rules.

He sees God as demanding – a tyrant. He sees a bloodthirsty God (although he will not admit it) – an Old Covenant God who is more than willing to crush the life out of you.

The fruits produced from such a hellish religion produces “evil fruit” that will condemn the believer in the judgment. This group is seen in the following verses:

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (sin – i.e., the sin of self-righteousness).

On the other hand you have another group that experiencing the natural fruit of a loving relationship with a selfless God. They have fruit that is genuine because they are fully resting in "Christ our righteousness”.

[wicklunds]

Interesting comments, none of them worth the attention the truth deserves.

[Guest]

Robert you know as well as the rest of us that God is going to ask just ONE question to each of us. "Have you DONE what I asked you to DO? Those that lay awake at night devising plans on how not to do as Heaven has ask are only fooling themselves. BUT this effort put forth devising & skeeming does sell books that people are standing in line to buy in search of being comforted, but there is no comfort there. Comfort ONLY comes to the obedient, since the SOP tells us “The test of discipleship is obedience”. Oh if Jack had only used instruction like that in his book where his disciples that are bound and determined to follow some man could then believe.

[Gerr]

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Paul denies that anyone will ever get to heaven by keeping the law, for ALL believers are falling short of God's goodness.

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[:"blue"] I've pointed out this error before & I'll point it out again since you keep repeating it. By your definition of sin as "falling short of God's goodness," then all created beings in God's universe are falling short of God's goodness & therefore sinning, since Jesus said that "there is none good except God alone." Mk 10:18, Mt 19:17. Paul says that when you love your neighbor, you have fulfilled the law. Rom 13:8,10; Gal 5:14.[/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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By your definition of sin as "falling short of God's goodness," then all created beings in God's universe are falling short of God's goodness & therefore sinning, since Jesus said that "there is none good except God alone."

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No, that's your erroneous conclusion....Jesus is talking to a sinner [i.e., the rich ruler]. That sinner asked what good thing he must do to gain heaven. Jesus reminded him that on this green earth there's none righteous, no, not even one...

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Paul says that when you love your neighbor, you have fulfilled the law. Rom 13:8,10; Gal 5:14

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Gerry...wake up...open your eyes! Compare your life of sin to Christ's life of selflessness....Now what do you see? Here's what Ellen says you should see:

• He who says, "I am holy, I am sinless," [i.e., I am fulfilling the law] is self-deceived....To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not [:"red"]to see [/]the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. [Advent Review and Sabbath Herald - 09-25-00]

[wicklunds]

Robert,

I feel impressed to inquire of you if you place any weight at all in Ellen White's writings. It would seem, if I am recalling correctly from memory, that you do not regard her writ as authoritative. If you do, then I humbly apologize. But in all seriousness, it is really bad form for people to criticize and marginalize her as non-prophetic, and then come back and try to use her work as a refutation against a brother in the faith. Let us not be disingenuous in this regard. Thanks.

Dennis

[Robert]

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Robert,

I feel impressed to inquire of you if you place any weight at all in Ellen White's writings. Dennis

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Before I answer let me give you two quotes. Do you see anything wrong?

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  “The Lord loves those little children who try to do right, and he has promised that they shall be in his kingdom. [:"red"]But wicked children God does not love.[:"black"]...When you feel tempted to speak impatient and fretful, [:"red"]remember the Lord sees you, and will not love you if you do wrong.[:"black"] When you do right and overcome wrong feelings, the Lord smiles upon you. Although he is in heaven, and you cannot see him, yet he loves you when you do right, and writes it down his book; and when you do wrong, he puts a black mark against you. Now, dear Willie, try to do right always, and then no black mark will be set down against you; and when Jesus comes he will call for that good boy Willie White, and will put upon your head a wreath of gold, and put in your hand a little harp that you can play upon, and it will send forth beautiful music, and you will never be sick, never be tempted then to do wrong; but will be happy always, and will eat of rich fruit, and will pluck beautiful flowers. Try, try, dear boy, to be good.”

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  “[:"red"]Do not teach your children that God does not love them when they do wrong[/]; teach them that he loves them so that it grieves his Spirit to see them in transgression, because he knows they are doing injury to their souls. Do not terrify your children by telling them of the wrath of God, but rather seek to impress them with his unspeakable love and goodness, and thus let the glory of the Lord be revealed before them."

[wicklunds]

I rest my case...Never!!! Never!!! use Ellen White in your discourses with people, EVER!!!! This is the type of hypocrisy that we as Adventists should not be guilty of. Thank you for proving my point beyond a shadow of a doubt. Anyone reading this thread please do not buy the comments that this man "Robert" is dumping wholesale onto the CA Forum.

[wicklunds]

And as usual your only purpose is to antagonize and escalate the contentious issues. This says much to me as well.

[LifeHiscost]

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[:"blue"]Paul says that when you love your neighbor, you have fulfilled the law. Rom 13:8,10; Gal 5:14.[/]

Gerry

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And may I say love in action is a necessary part of the full gospel.

[:"red"] "Bear (endure, carry) one another's burdens and troublesome moral faults, and in this way fulfill and observe perfectly the law of Christ (the Messiah) and complete what is lacking [in your obedience to it]. " [/] Galatians 6:2 AMP

[LifeHiscost]

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“The test of discipleship is obedience”.

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Nevertheless, disciple or no, salvation is not a result of that obedience. True obedience is a result of having been saved.

[:"red"] "Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing." [/]

John 15:5 NLT

[:"red"] "And if they are saved by God's kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God's wonderful kindness would not be what it really is--free and undeserved. " [/] Romans 11:6 NLT

[:"red"] "In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. " [/]

Romans 11:5,6 NASB

[Robert]

• [:"red"] "When you feel tempted to speak impatient and fretful, remember the Lord sees you, and will not love you if you do wrong."[:"black"] [March 14, 1860]

  [:"red"]"Do not teach your children that God does not love them when they do wrong."[/] [February 1, 1892]

32 years later, Ellen White changed her position. I asked you what you thought, but instead you attacked. Hmmm?

There's a simple answer:

• -BC- 1888

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  "In regard to infallibility, I never claimed it; God alone is infallible. His word [the Bible] is true, And in him is no variableness, or shadow of turning."

What should we conclude?

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  "We [note, EGW includes herself] have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. As long as we hold to our own ideas and opinions with determined persistency, we cannot have the unity for which Christ prayed.

Then she gives a warning:

• "Men rest satisfied with the light already received from God's word, and discourage any further investigation of the Scriptures. [:"red"]They become conservative, and seek to avoid discussion[:"black"].... When no new questions are started by investigation of the Scriptures, when no difference of opinion arises which will set men to searching the Bible for themselves, to make sure that they have the truth, there will be many now, as in ancient times, who will hold to tradition, and worship they know not what."

[Robert]

Look at the following EGW quotes....What's the conclusion:

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  ....God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, [:"red"]“This do, and thou shalt live.”[/] But to the disobedient He says, [:"red"]“Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”[/]....He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them.

  -PC- RH

  -PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

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  -AT- The Two Covenants

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  The terms of [:"blue"]the "old covenant"[/] were, [:"red"]Obey and live[/] "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but [:"red"]"cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them."[/] Deut. 27:26.

Now compare the two:

[:"red"]“This do, and thou shalt live.”[/]

[:"red"]"Obey and live"[/]

[DaveM1936]

"Never forget what a man says to you when he is angry!" Henry Ward Beecher

Do we speak the truth when we are angry? We are always quick to say, "I really didn't mean it," and we may even try to make amends for our thoughtlessness. But people, especially children,rarely forget what was said to them in anger.

Angry words hurt and mark people. Even if our parents didn't really mean it, those angry voices and words are still with us. We often come to believe that our paents didn't love us or respect us, otherwise, how could they have said those angry things that still hurt?

We will always have moments of anger. But we can think twice before lettiing anger dictate our speech. Words can hurt and people remember.

I know I will sometimes feel angry, but I want to be sure that whay I say is honest because people may take me at my word.

Your friend,

Dave M

[benherndon]

Though I did for a long time, I, now, do not see a lot of difference between what Paul writes and what James writes. For years I thought James was promoting the Ten Commandments and the Old Covenant Law as he wrote--but I do not see it that way now.

One has to be careful how one interprets James and his speaking of the law of liberty or freedom and the royal law and the 'whole law'. And, when James speakds of faith without works being dead, he isn't referring to obeying the Ten Commandments in every detail. He is referring to doing 'good works'---many of which are not included in 'the Law' or the Ten Commandments. 'Doing good works' is just being a good considerate and compassionate person being a friend to and helping others in their struggles with life.

Paul is trying to convince the Judaizers that we are saved by grace and not by obedience to 'the Law' of Moses. James is trying to tell us that just lazy 'faith' doesn't 'cut it'---we have to live a life of 'good' also while believing in and worshipping God and our Savior. We have to live a life of consideration of the emotions and physical needs, and friendliness to our fellow humans.

Anybody have a different view? Let's hear it?

Ben

[Robert]

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Paul is trying to convince the Judaizers that we are saved by grace and not by obedience to 'the Law' of Moses.

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Only partially....Paul was trying to convince Christian believers (the Galatians for example) that we are saved by faith alone...and not only from "the law of Moses", but especially the moral law.

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James is trying to tell us that just lazy 'faith' doesn't 'cut it'---

we

have to live a life of 'good' also while believing in and worshipping God and our Savior.

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That bold type is an "old covenant" statement.... Genuine faith allows Christ to help us experience holy living....It is a byproduct of a relationship with Him.

[benherndon]

It wasn't in 'bold' type and nothing special was meant by 'we have'......What I meant was as the interaction of faith and 'works', actions, thoughts of life we respond with respect/love for God AND our concern for our fellows in this life. We are what is commonly in the current common vocabulary doing 'good' things when we do those things. THAT is what James is talking about. Give a little poetic license leeway, Robert. And......yes we do resist some of our temptations to evil but I agree such resistance does not in itself does not save us.

And, by the way, nobody knows everything about God, Christ, salvation, judgement, etc etc---except you and me, Robert and sometimes, just sometimes I wonder about you.

Ben

[benherndon]

Since none of us keep the Sabbath the way it was presented to be kept we are NOT doing it to show faith that has any effect at all on whether or not we are saved-- and there is no New Testament instruction to keep the Sabbath for that purpose. However we can keep it and SAY we keep it in honor of and respect for it being the only day God chose as a special day for His people of old to keep--and in honor of His Creation and in honor of His deliverance of the Israelites. The force of that Law ended with His death on the cross and the tearing of the temple curtain, signifying His flesh, that OPENED the MHP for all believers to be part of the kingdom of priests---and totally terminated the Mosaic era of God-worship.

We should baptize into Christ anybody who believes Jesus to be the Son of God Who was raised back to life from death whether or not they must for various reasons work on the Sabbath. We should allow their families to attend with us in good faith and standing--and for the husband who works on Sabbath come to our church to worship with us when he can do so.

Ben

[Gerr]

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• [:"red"] "When you feel tempted to speak impatient and fretful, remember the Lord sees you, and will not love you if you do wrong."[:"black"]
  [March 14,
  1860]
  [:"red"]"Do not teach your children that God does not love them when they do wrong."[/]
  [February 1,
  1892
  ]

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[:"blue"]And what will you do with the Bible then because it also says:

[:"red"]"And God is angry with the wicked every day." Ps 7:11 NKJ.

"These six things the LORD hates,

Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: a proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren." Prov 6:16-19 NKJ. [/]

[/]

Gerry

[benherndon]

Are you tempting those who read C/A to throw both the Bible AND EGW out because they say conflicting things?

Remember Ps and Prov were not written by the same person! OT authors were different people who wrote with OT mindsets and used different words. That's why you can find somewhat different statements in NT, too---different authors. However, ALL the NT authors had 3yrs of 'real' time with Jesus and His immediate followers. None of the OT authors ever had any personal time with God---they did not observe or eat or walk or read or drink or sleep and carry on life with Him. Moses only had a short time(40 days ?) with God and 'never' saw Him.

Therefore-----OT authors do not speak with quite the equivalent authority of NT authors. That's why Paul wrote in 2Cor 3 that those who read Moses and attribute to him authority equivalent to Christ will have a 'vail' confusing their understanding and interpretation of the Message of Grace from Jesus. Moses brought Law! Jesus brings grace and truth!!! (Whassa matta with you guys! )

EGW is 'pastoral'.............The Bible is 'prophetic'.

EGW is not 'prophetic' in the same sense as the Bible.

Note once again---Read Joel 2 and Acts 2-- 'sonS and daughterS'!! EGW was only one!! 1Cor 14 tells us how we should now, and, should have regarded EGW in relation to NT type of 'prophesying'-----its different than considering her equivalent to Scripture! Bible prophesying and the prophesying of nonBiblical Christian writers is hugely different!!

Note Heb 1. In former times God used prophets. HOWEVER, today He speaks through His Son! Do you sense the contrast?

(I guess you don't sense the contrast.---the 'vail' prevents your sensing it!)

Ben

[Gerr]

Robert questions the authority of EGW when someone brings up something that he doesn't agree with, or something that seems contradictory. My point is that by the same reasoning, then, he should also doubt the authority of the Bible because there are things in it that seem contradictory.

If you haven't noticed, Ben, Jesus did not claim to speak something other than what the Father had revealed to Him. In no way shape or form would contradict a truth previously spoken by the Father.

Gerry

[Robert]

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Robert questions the authority of EGW when someone brings up something that he doesn't agree with, or something that seems contradictory. My point is that by the same reasoning, then, he should also doubt the authority of the Bible because there are things in it that seem contradictory.

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Ellen White's writings were mainly on Christian living....Early on she bordered on legalism...if not straight out. Years later she mellowed out as she better understood the gospel.

As concerning visions, her knowledge grew here also....

However, we should not limit our Biblical understanding by Ellen White's partial, limited light years ago....If we do that we are no better than the Lutherans who drew a circle about Martian Luther's writings and hence refused further light....

EWG clearly states that she and the Church had only a glimmer of the light that was yet to come....I quoted that somewhere on CA.....Find it and read it again.

Areas that I agree with Ellen White are:

1] "The in Christ" motif

2] The State of the dead

3] That Adventists are now is Laodicea

4] Some aspects of the Sabbath related to the gospel

5] That the third angel's message is justification by faith

Areas I disagree

1] Early view of salvation....Very legalistic...not Pharisee legalistic, maybe subtlety legalistic fits better.

2] I have some issue with 1844, but not totally

3] She seems to call the church Laodicea and the remnant, simultaneously....I disagree that the church is now the remnant.

4] I have an issue with her view of tithe....I refuse to support any denomination unless they are preaching "the gospel"....I'll let God deal with me on this one....Also I do not see tithing as an issue of salvation under the N.C.

I am sure that I left out some....but that's the basics.

Rob

[benherndon]

Gerry, what is recorded in the Torah came from God to Moses for a specific people that did NOT include those gentiles living outside the camp of the Israelites. All one has to do to confirm this IS to accept that the OT says 'no other nation' was given 'the Law'(Ps 147:19,20). What Christ and His disciples and appointed NT writers said was that His message was for all peoples of the earth and that the Jewish aspects of God's religion did NOT apply to all the people of the world!! Reconsider the book of Acts with this point in mind.

It is my opinion that your apparent inability to agree is that you have unwisely enshrouded 'the Writings' of the founder of this church as being 'nearCanonical', prophetic, and of 'continuing authority'--rather than considering them 'pastoral'.

Seems to me people are not reading the NT with the supreme authority from Christ revealed in it. [As John 1 says, Moses brought Law; Christ brings grace and truth.]

Christ (and the Holy Spirit, we presume, do we not?) appointed other NT writers to elaborate on His own words and teachings. Those people were able to perform miraculous healings and restoration of life. They were enshrouded by Him and the HS as true Canonical prophets! It appears to me EGW was not on that level. Did she put herself on that level? I think not! Have you asked yourself if EGW DID put herself in that category? She was quite opinionated----Yes! and confident! Yes! ---but I don't find her putting herself in the same category as the writers of the New Testament. Some of her followers did that but .... I don't think she did.

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If you haven't noticed, Ben, Jesus did not claim to speak something other than what the Father had revealed to Him. In no way shape or form would contradict a truth previously spoken by the Father.

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>>>>Yes, Christ DID clearly do and say some things that were not considered to be in accordance with OT instructions, teachings, laws and whatever of the OT. Read, again, about Christ's Sabbath activities compared with the 4th Commandment and associated instructions---like Jer 17. Check out His regard for the 'clean/unclean' laws of the Torah. It seems to me that many improperly interpret Christ's statement, "The Sabbath was made for man; not man for the Sabbath" Read the 'build up' to that statement.

Christ and the Father were the 'same'---so, Christ, being God same as the Father, did things differently for the people of the world than He did for the former 'chosen' people, the Jews!

The Mosaic era ended at the Cross. The entire and virtually sole purpose of the OT was to point to Christ. He and His coming completed that purpose, fulfilled it completely, and altered the Jewish system dramatically. With His coming we are now in the Christian era. Things and times are different. God was here in 'Person'! We now are in the 'end times'.

The Sanctuary service pointed to Him. He fulfilled it all. The Jews didn't believe and that was their problem! Christians are believers.

"The jailer...asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved---you and your household." Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all others in his house....then immediately (!) he and all his family were baptized....because they had come to believe in God." Acts 16:29-34

Was the Jailer and his family told all about "the Law"? Were they explained all about Sabbath observance? Was Moses read to them?

Who knows for sure, of course. But it doesn't seem so contextually. Did they know about EGW was to come along with more information 1800 yrs later. I doubt it, don't you?

Did the jailer and family have a problem with the 'vail'? Seems to me they must have fully understood Grace! I strongly suspect they realized they were sinners and were fully forgiven----their sins forgotten, buried in the bottom of the sea, as far from them as the east is from the west, etc.

This is what seems to me to be what Christianity is all about. Everything else is secondary. Believers do not practice ignoring God and being deeply selfish and harming other humans. The Law was for the detestable sinner. "The Law" under Christianity is not for the 'good man'---see 1Tim 1.

Ben

[Gerr]

"When it suits your purpose, you treat the Testimonies as if you believed them, quoting from them to strengthen any statement you wish to have prevail. But how is it when light is given to correct your errors? Do you then accept the light? When the Testimonies peak contrary to your ideas, you treat them very lightly." 1SM 43.

"Regarding the testimonies, nothing is ignored; nothing is cast aside; but time and place must be considered." 1 SM 57

"In public labor do not make prominent, and quote that which Sister White has written, as authority to sustain your positions. To do this will not increase faith in the testimonies. Bring your evidences, clear and plain, from the Word of God. A 'Thus saith the Lord' is the strongest testimony you can possibly present to the people. Let none be educated to look to Sister White, but to the mighty God who gives instruction to Sister White." 3SM 29,30

Gerry

[Robert]

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  Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don't you never quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don't you give a rap any more what "Sister White said"-- "Sister White said this," and "Sister White said that," and "Sister White said the other thing."