What is sin?

[Robert]

Read me!

[Robert]

Read me too!

[Woody]

Thanks Rob. Excellent.

[Gibs]

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Christ in us does just that, our only hope of Glory. Satan works to get us into sin, Christ in you and Satan is a defeated foe from accomplishing any of his pitfalls for us. He is greater than all for that accomplishment. He is given ALL power to do His task.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Gal 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

How many commands are in the spirit of God's law?

a] 1

b] 2

Answer: 1

God's law doesn't tell us to,

1] love ourselves and then

2] love our neighbors

No, instead we are to agape our neighbors as we love ourselves. In other words instead of loving yourself...instead of building your wealth, live for others instead with no thought towards yourself!

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure ; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

[Robert]

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Where does it say in the law to love your enemies?

Where does it say in the law that it's murder to hate?

Where does it say in the law that if you look at a woman sexually, you've committed adultery?

Where does it say in the law that your sinful nature makes you a sinner?

[Woody]

I fear there has been a 'dumbing down' of what sin is.

People try to justify and excuse sin and proclaim that they have not sinned.

This is the test of the last days. It is Satan's biggest tool.

The topic of sin is one that is not superficial. Sin is serious. WE must better understand what it is and how we fail so much to rid it from our lives.

The Good News: WE are saved even though are sinners and continue to sin after meeting our Saviour.

[Robert]

I fear there has been a 'dumbing down' of what sin is.

Bingo....

If I reduce the law to rules that I can keep then I can claim to be above sin. Saul the Pharisee did this. What changed his mind? Answer in red:

Paul says that as “touching the righteousness which is in the law”—as far as outward acts were concerned --he was “blameless” (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. [sC 29]

[Robert]

the spiritual character of the law

The spirituality of the law is spelled out in Matt 5:27-48

21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.

27 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[Robert]

The law of Jehovah is exceedingly broad. Jesus . . . plainly declared to His disciples that this holy law of God may be violated in even the thoughts and feelings and desires, as well as in the word and deed. The heart that loves God supremely will not in any way be inclined to narrow down His precepts to the very smallest possible claims,...[OHC 140]

[Gibs]

Robert, Woody, It's all in the Royal Law and it has been enlarged on what is fornication and etc, and all you mentioned. Yes all sin is transgression of that Royal Law and it is only posted in the brief in those 10 but none should have any trouble to see how it is complete and we have no excuse to not see it.

A wonderful Law Of Love, Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

A wonderful Law Of Love,

So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

The problem is we are sinners, bent to self and under law we must die.

So Christ came to save us, not from hell, but from under the curse of the law. We had to be saved from the law.

Why then do you (Gibs) try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? (taken from Acts 15:10)

[Woody]

[Gibs]

He made the only way very easy and light for all to be overcomers as He that none need be the servant of sin. He in you is your power and no excuse do you need that you could not do it. Then He tells us.

Mt 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

What are you trying to say or to prove, Robert? Showing the spirituality of the law is proof that the sinner is condemned to sin for the rest of his life? If this is the case then why are the Scriptures so full of promises to the overcomers?

Can you answer that please?

sky

[Woody]

We will never fully overcome on this Earth.

That is why we need the Grace of God.

It is HIS life that is placed before ours in the judgment. My life/works is as filthy rags towards my salvation.

As with Bible greats such as David - we will sin till the day we die.

What I read written by some here seems to be an 'all or nothing' kind of religion. We do (with the strength of God) overcome in this life. But we do NOT have total victory in all areas.

[Robert]

Mt 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

You left out the context:

28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

You rest in His finished works....Working isn't resting.

[Robert]

"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained [i.e., I am sinless - I am holy]. [AA 560]

[Gibs]

His Work isn't finished in you yet Robert and you will have to fight off the evil yes as long as you live as Satan is on your tail and he isn't going to lose if he can get you to continue with him. If you let Christ He will give you the power and you can be an overcomer of which you must in this life. His Spirit continually works on all to clear them of the "mud" they are in.

"Man works and God works. Man is called upon to strain every muscle and to exercise every faculty in the struggle for immortality, but it is God who supplies the efficiency. God has made amazing sacrifices for human beings. He has expended mighty energy to reclaim man from transgression and sin to loyalty and obedience, but He does nothing without the cooperation of humanity. . . . It is by unceasing endeavor that we maintain the victory over the temptations of Satan. . . . {HP 159.3}

No one is borne upward without stern, persevering effort in his own behalf. All must engage in the warfare for themselves. Individually we are responsible for the issue of the struggle; though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in the land, they could deliver neither son nor daughter by their righteousness." . . . {HP 159.4}

Sin is the mudholes and big ones and when we walk in this world we need Him in us to keep our balance to not fall into them. He cleaned us off and will give His power to you to stay clean.

Sin is Satan's way and the way of most men today, we are called, - - 2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

A wonderful Law Of Love,

So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

The problem is we are sinners, bent to self and under law we must die.

So Christ came to save us, not from hell, but from under the curse of the law. We had to be saved from the law.

Why then do you (Gibs) try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? (taken from Acts 15:10)

Saved from the law? Christ did not die to save us from the law but from disobedience to the law.

The law of liberty which is the moral law of ten commandments becomes an easy yoke when received in Christ. Then it is the Royal law of liberty for every one of its precepts is Spirit and Life in Christ Jesus.

sky

The Scripture you have quoted refers to the circumcision of the flesh. But it is also true that all who attempt to keep the law of ten commandments without Christ are attempting an impossibility and the law then becomes an unbearable yoke.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

A wonderful Law Of Love,

So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

The problem is we are sinners, bent to self and under law we must die.

So Christ came to save us, not from hell, but from under the curse of the law. We had to be saved from the law.

Why then do you (Gibs) try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? (taken from Acts 15:10)

Amen and Amen.

[skyblue888]

I thought I had heard it all... but no...

If Christ came to save us from the law He defeated His own purpose which is to establish the law. He came to magnify the law and to make it honorable by obeying every one of its precepts.

What in the church is going on? We now have to reason with our adventist brothers and sisters as if they were from the other churches

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid; yea, we establish the law." Rom.3:31.

Robert says, "The problem is we are sinners, bent to self and under law we must die. So Christ came to save us, not from hell, but from under the curse of the law. We had to be saved from the law."

And this is received as the Testimony of Jesus! But when the true testimony of Jesus is heard, it is disbelieved.

Christ did come to save us not only from the curse of the law but from hell as well.

True we are naturally bent on self and sin and unless we get help we will die under the law, under the curse of the law, under the condemnation of the law.

But as we become one with Christ through faith in His all-sufficient merits we are not under the condemnation of the law but under grace. Grace is not merely saying I forgive your sins. Grace is given to empower, to enable, to strengthen, to make a helpless sinner even more than a conquerer. (Rom.8:37)

"The religion of Christ means more than the forgiveness of sins; it means taking away our sins and filling the vacuum with the graces of the Holy Spirit. It means divine illumination, rejoicing in God. It means a heart emptied of self, and blessed with the abiding presence of Christ. When Christ reigns in the soul, there is purity, freedom from sin." C.O.L.420.

Now if anyone comes to us saying that when Ellen wrote the above she did not know what she was talking about, then we must be on guard for it is not the voice of the Spirit but of the enemy of all righteousness.

sky

[Gibs]

Sky it appears some do not believe Christ can save them from sinning. You know there is only one way possible that I know of that Christ cannot strengthen one to be an overcomer.

This may be hard, but that could only be if that one will not let Him in one way or the other. Either from unbelief or lack of faith or lack of understanding the way He has made that it can be. Or not willing to fall and be broken on Him that He alone is the Master in the house, temple of His Spirit. ( Mind and Heart )

He has to be the Master in us or we are sunk, might as well give up the pretense! So to keep His efforts and ours not in vain, be broken on Him and allow Him to take over and be your strength and stay and imperveous covering in the time ahead. All will need His strength and covering or we will not stand or win the race.

The following is not the strongest quote of EGW that I could find but states well the right thinking here in our discussion.

"There is nothing so offensive to God as sin. Instead of making void the law of God by continuing in sin, every truly converted soul will be walking in the path of humble obedience to all of God's commandments. They will search the Scriptures that they might know the truth. Who hath bewitched the impenitent, the transgressor, that sin is chosen rather than obedience? It is the power of Satan that came to Adam and Eve in Eden, the deceiving, bewitching power of the fallen angel. . . . {UL 209.5}

How few talk about this great sacrifice of the life of Jesus to save the guilty sinner! If we appreciated this love manifested by God for our souls we would be elevated by taking hold of the merits of Jesus Christ, for without the righteousness of Christ man could not give to God perfect obedience. . . . {UL 209.6}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

If Christ came to save us from the law He defeated His own purpose which is to establish the law.

You sir do not establish the law. Christ established the law - He is our righteousness.

Clearly we had to be delivered from under law:

Romans 2:11 "all who sin under the law will be judged by the law".....Do you know what the law does when you sin? Gal 3:10 "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." It condemns you to the eternal grave - the 2nd death.

Paul goes on to say, " Before the faith (Jesus) came (into the world), we were held prisoners by the law, locked up (awaiting execution) until the faith (Christ) should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us until Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that the faith (Christ)has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Why? Because, "we died to the law in the body of Christ" (see Romans 6:6/Rom 7:6)...Therefore, "by dying to what once bound us (the law), we have been released from the law (we aren't under it's jurisdiction)....(Romans 7:6)

Why? Because you aren't meeting its claims! If you think you are, then you are deceived. See Romans 3:23/1 John 1:8

Now, that does not mean that there's no growth: Read the rest of Romans 7:6

But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive (i.e., in the humanity of Christ), so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code (obey and live, disobey and die).

[Robert]

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid; yea, we establish the law." Rom.3:31.

I've addressed this before. Did you read it?

Here's a good translation: (Young's Literal Translation)

31 Law then do we make useless through the faith? let it not be! yea, we do establish law.

"The faith" refers to Christ. You can also find this Galatians chapter three also. However, the subject of Romans 3 is justification by faith:

Romans 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short (continuous, present tense) of the glory of God (His agape love), 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

It's God's doing....A righteousness we didn't and couldn't present. So it's a righteousness outside our law keeping. And then you think verse 31 contradicts all this? Nonsense. Context is a must!

Notice verse 23. "All have sinned" Right there the law places you in death row. It doesn't forgive. And, according to Paul, you are failing to consistently love as Christ loves. Hence you fall short of fulfilling the law. For that the law condemns you also.

You need to be delivered from law, but instead many SDA place believers under law. That's heresy! That's placing believers under a yoke of bondage.