First-born of Heaven

[Dr. Waite]

"The dedication of the first-born had its origin in the earliest times. God had promised to give the First-born of heaven to save the sinner." Desire of Ages, page 51.

How could the Son of God be [a] god who is "a unity of three co-eternal persons" and also be the "First-born of heaven"?

[Gerr]

Check out what it means to be "first born". In terms of time, Jesus was not the first to rise from the dead, yet He is called "the first born of the dead."

[Gibs]

Trinity doctrine gets smack in the road there!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

ESV | ‎Ex 4:22 "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son,"

What did God mean?

[Dr. Waite]

ESV | ‎Ex 4:22 "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son,"

What did God mean?

But, the verse does not say the Israel is the "first-born of Heaven".

[Gibs]

Gerry,

To me He is telling Pharaoh, Israel is to me as your first born son is to you. That He treasures Israel tops. Next vere,

Ex 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

And in response to the thread op.

The first born of "HEAVEN" would of course be Jesus Christ and can be none other. Now He is called God and God is first and there is no other than He, Isaiah says "I know not any". He Jesus also states "I am the first". See the problem.

There is no problem if you will come to the realization there is only ONE God and that it was because the Father dwelt in His son that He is God also.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Jesus Christ was not only the son of man but also the Son of God the Father, The Prince with us as one of us and knowing us. This is true of not only The Son but of the Father also as The Father was in Him.

Thus all power was in Him, Jesus Christ,

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Those verses tell us more than most have come to realize.

Now is the Holy Spirit another God? No! Please read this verse,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

ESV | ‎Ex 4:22 "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son,"

What did God mean?

But, the verse does not say the Israel is the "first-born of Heaven".

ESV | ‎Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

ESV | ‎Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. ‎19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,

Christ being firstborn has nothing to do with birth or being created; it has to do with position.

[Gibs]

He was God's only son, so His firstborn. The first and only firstborn of Heaven as His Father is the King of Heaven and all. Born of a woman and so also the son of man and earth.

He sure did have the position, the great plan laid before creation.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Waite]

[Lysimachus]

It is only reasonable to believe that Lucifer was jealous of Christ because there was a time when Christ was not equal with the Father. This is why time and time again Ellen White states that the Father made Christ equal with Himself, and the language leaves no room for this to mean after Bethlehem. This is why Christ is 100% equal with the Father, because He was MADE equal with the Father. He was exalted to this position. And numerous EGW and Bible statements can prove this.

If Christ had always been equal with the Father in eternal past, Lucifer would have had nothing to be jealous about--for how can you be jealous over someone who has always been at the highest status of elevation since your existence? The fact that Lucifer was very jealous about Christ's position--and the fact that all the councils of heaven were opened to His Son, is evidence in and of itself that we see a heavenly hierarchy here which all earthly monarchies are copied off of. Earthly monarchs were also notorious for giving their son (prince) co-regent status with themselves--this also was a copy of what had transpired in heaven. Christ was elevated to co-regency with the Father.

This does not mean that Christ is not fully God and not fully Divine, nor does it mean He does not go back to the eternal past. The problem is, many Trinitarians get hung up on these true concepts and disqualify them as being true simply because they cannot wrap their finite minds around the fact that although Christ is TRULY and LITERALLY the Son of God, and while the Father is truly the SUPREME ruler of the Universe who has elevated His Son to co-regent status with Himself, this in no way negates or diminishes whatsoever Christ's Divinity, nor does it in any way shape or form promote the heretical teaching that Christ was created. He was unequivocally not created. But just because we believe this truth does not mean we should ignore that there truly is a hierarchy in heaven, and that there is TRULY and Father and Son relationship that cannot be ignored. And we should just accept these concepts by faith, even if we can't fully understand them.

[Gibs]

Lys,

I think I have to question your thinking there as before Bethlehem He was not born nor was He a created Being. Jesus said He Proceeded and came forth from the Father - - Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

It looks to me as the Father brought Him forth of His own substance being able to also claim pre existence. Then we have the statement of Isaiah - - Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

You will notice both hold the Divine name and then we have the "shema" - - De 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

"Lord of Hosts" and "Lord the King of Israel" we see are ONE Lord or YHWH.

EGW stated Jesus claime He and the Father of one substance in this way.

"The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes. The Jews understood his meaning, there was no reason why they should misunderstand, and they took up stones to stone him. Jesus looked upon them calmly and unshrinkingly, and said, "Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of these works do ye stone me?" {ST, November 27, 1893 par. 5}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

It is only reasonable to believe that Lucifer was jealous of Christ because there was a time when Christ was not equal with the Father. This is why time and time again Ellen White states that the Father made Christ equal with Himself, and the language leaves no room for this to mean after Bethlehem.

If what you say is true, it would mean the Father sent an inferior being or an "inferior god" to save humankind.

Neither Ellen White nor the Bible teach that there was a time before the crucifixion when Christ was not equal with the Father. Christ is "the eternal Son of God," equal to the Father in the highest sense from all eternity. Christ is the Second Person of the Godhead, and the Godhead is eternal, without change. God does not change. Christ is God in the highest sense, which means the Father is not God in any higher sense than Christ is.

Lucifer was jealous of Christ, not because Christ changed but because Christ was humble and was the leader of the angels. (Similarly, today there are many who reject the full deity of Christ because he appeared to be merely a humble human being.) Therefore the Father called all the angels together to make it clear that Christ was equal with the Father and that they were to obey the Son in the same way they obeyed the Father.

[Gibs]

Here is a statement from EGW and what she saw,

" In the work of creation Christ was with God. He was one with God, equal with Him. . . . He alone, the Creator of man, could be his Saviour. No angel of heaven could reveal the Father to the sinner, and win him back to allegiance to God. But Christ could manifest the Father's love, for God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself. Christ could be the "daysman" between a holy God and lost humanity, one who could "lay his hand upon us both" (Job 9:33). . . . He proposed to take upon Himself the guilt and shame of sin--sin so offensive in the sight of God that it would necessitate separation from His Father. Christ proposed to reach to the depths of man's degradation and woe, and restore the repenting, believing soul to harmony with God. Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, offered Himself as a sacrifice and substitute for the fallen sons of Adam." {TMK 18.4}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

This seems to me to be another thread started to knock EGW!!!!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

ESV | ‎Ex 4:22 "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son,"

What did God mean?

But, the verse does not say the Israel is the "first-born of Heaven".

And Israel/Jacob was not the firstborn in terms of time. He was firstborn in terms of position.

[Gerr]

So what was Christ's position in Heaven before He was born a babe in Bethlehem?

To the angels, He was Michael, the ARCHangel. To man before Bethlehem, He was "the Angel of the LORD." But in truth, He was/is the "I AM" of the OT.

Quote:

Satan still hates Christ's position. Satan hates Christ's position so much he wants everyone to believe a lie - that Christ was not God's only begotten divine Son before He came to earth where He was born a helpless babe and the lie that God did not have a only begotten divine Son to send to earth to die in the place of the sinner.

If Christ appeared to the angels as Michael the Archangel, to Lucifer He appeared just like one of them, yet God "endowing Him with such unlimited power and command," he became jealous. That's why this became necessary:

"The King of the universe summoned the heavenly hosts before Him, that in their presence He might set forth the true position of His Son and show the relation He sustained to all created beings. The Son of God shared the Father's throne, and the glory of the eternal, self-existent One encircled both. About the throne gathered the holy angels, a vast, unnumbered throng--"ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands" (Revelation 5:11.), the most exalted angels, as ministers and subjects, rejoicing in the light that fell upon them from the presence of the Deity. Before the assembled inhabitants of heaven the King declared that none but Christ, the Only Begotten of God, could fully enter into His purposes, and to Him it was committed to execute the mighty counsels of His will. The Son of God had wrought the Father's will in the creation of all the hosts of heaven; and to Him, as well as to God, their homage and allegiance were due. Christ was still to exercise divine power, in the creation of the earth and its inhabitants. But in all this He would not seek power or exaltation for Himself contrary to God's plan, but would exalt the Father's glory and execute His purposes of beneficence and love." {PP 36.2}

[Gerr]

I might also add that to man, Christ also appears as the "Son of Man". So it appears that each person of the Godhead had/has a defined role vis-a-vis their dealings with their creatures.

[Gibs]

Well, I only will add this, this morning. In the first place before anything, in my vernacular, God, YHWH extended Himself into a Redeemer should any fall to sin and rebellion should it arise in the coming creation. This Redeemer of Himself was sent to do all the visible creation, Hosts and all.

Then at Bethlehem, Heaven was emptied of it's Redeemer and Great commander who was truly one with YHWH, of the one and same substance, not another God in no way. He is then truly the ever existing eternal one from all eternity, the existence same as YHWH King of Israel was YHWH Lord of Hosts, Jesus Christ after Bethlehem.

Isaiah's statement is true, - - Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

He was incorporated into the Man Jesus Christ born of Mary 4,000 aprox. yrs. after the fall of man. Then truly He was God with us, the Father, YHWH as 2 Cor. 5:19 states reconciling the world unto Himself.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

YHWH is God and there is none other never or ever!

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Jesus said it and I believe it and don't you know He ought to know!

We are all blessed of Him, and He will be in us, if we will it!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

It is only reasonable to believe that Lucifer was jealous of Christ because there was a time when Christ was not equal with the Father. This is why time and time again Ellen White states that the Father made Christ equal with Himself, and the language leaves no room for this to mean after Bethlehem.

If what you say is true, it would mean the Father sent an inferior being or an "inferior god" to save humankind.

Neither Ellen White nor the Bible teach that there was a time before the crucifixion when Christ was not equal with the Father. Christ is "the eternal Son of God," equal to the Father in the highest sense from all eternity. Christ is the Second Person of the Godhead, and the Godhead is eternal, without change. God does not change. Christ is God in the highest sense, which means the Father is not God in any higher sense than Christ is.

Lucifer was jealous of Christ, not because Christ changed but because Christ was humble and was the leader of the angels. (Similarly, today there are many who reject the full deity of Christ because he appeared to be merely a humble human being.) Therefore the Father called all the angels together to make it clear that Christ was equal with the Father and that they were to obey the Son in the same way they obeyed the Father.

By stating that the Father sent an inferior god to earth are you implying that when the father begat his divine son his work of bearing a son was imperfect?

[Gordon1]

..there was a time when Christ was not equal with the Father.

This is why time and time again Ellen White states that the Father made Christ equal with Himself

Lysimachus - it would be instructive to post these EGW statements so we can read them too.

I've never read her assertion that "Christ was not equal with the Father".

I very much doubt she wrote that or believed it.

[Lysimachus]

I will provide the statements as soon as I'm back from my trip. Been gone for almost a week. I had posted them some months back, and I had assumed many of you here read them, but I will be glad to post them again, along with several more.

[Gordon1]

Or a link to the former page..

[Lysimachus]

I would have no idea where that post went by now Gordon, lol.

[Gerr]

[

"In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived." DA 530

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

"The Scriptures clearly indicate the relation between God and Christ, and they bring to view as clearly the personality and individuality of each. God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God. To Christ has been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to His Son. {CCh 76.5}

Thus we see the following points:

1. God IS the Father of Christ (not just a role play)

2. Christ IS the Son of God (not just a role play)

3. Christ has been GIVEN an exalted position (it means he did not have this exalted position before)

4. He has been MADE EQUAL (past tense) with the Father. (Clearly, if you have been "made equal", you could not have been always equal in the past).

6. ALL the counsels of God are opened to His Son -- we clearly see a hierarchy here where the Father has opened up these counsels to His son alone, and no one else.

Yet we know, In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him" (Colossians 2:9, 10)--thus Christ in no way is an inferior being, but He is the SON OF GOD. When you are the Son of a God, you can only be God--for true sons are not created.

Thus, when the Father sent His Son, in no way can this true concept of the Godhead make Christ an inferior being. Yet this does not make the Father not the head of Christ.

In fact, Ellen White often terms the Father The Supreme Ruler of the Universe. Never once is the Son of God addressed as the "supreme ruler of the universe". "He taught man to address the Supreme Ruler of the universe by the new name -- "Our Father." ({FE 309}

"God, as the supreme ruler of the universe has ever required prompt and unquestioning obedience. Even Christ, in the days of his flesh, was obedient to the law of the Father." {ST, July 22, 1886 par. 2}

Adventists today are obsessed with over-stating the Divinity of Christ in order to try and "lift-Him up". While the intentions are good, they are actually shooting themselves in the foot, and giving amunition to the pagans who accuse us of not believing in one true God----but instead, in a tritheistic, or polytheistic God. We need not get caught in the trap that simply because the Father is the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and that Jesus was exalted and elevated to a position of equality, that this necessitates Christ being a lesser Divine being than the Father. Only those who choose to imagine this will imagine it, but it does not need to be imagined.

While we may attempt to prove the Divinity of Christ, we must be careful, because in so doing, we can also swing the pendulum to the opposite extreme by over-stating it, and therefore indirectly destroying Christ's Sonship, the Father's Sacrifice in giving up His own begotten Son, and the headship of the Father as being the Supreme Ruler of the Universe.

Paul was not confused when He made the following statements:

"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but ONE God, THE FATHER, of whom are all things, and we in him; and ONE Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Cor. 8:6)

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (1 Cor 11:3)

Paul saw this hierarchy clearly. And when one reads these statements without any Roman Catholic predilections or predispositions, they are as clear as they noon-day sun. So we should not try to hop, skip, and dance between the raindrops to make them say anything else but what they plainly reveal.

There are many more statements I could show--when put all together, you see that Lucifer was jealous of this very thing--the exaltation of Christ.

I will pause for now, but will gather more later as I find the time.