Graeme Bradford

[Jeannieb43]

I just saw a Hope Channel talk with Jon Paulien and Graeme Bradford on the topic of Armageddon. It was very interesting.

The notation said Graeme Bradford is a faculty member at Avondale College.

I wonder if anybody here knows about Dr. Bradford, or studied with him, or can tell me if he's still actively teaching at Avondale. [i think the Hope Channel program might have been a rerun.]

Thanks for your help, you Aussies. [or anybody else who can contribute]

[Gail]

I am assuming that this is the new Revelation series that has just come out. I've got it at home but haven't looked at it yet, just trailers.

[phkrause]

I have that series on DVDs, recorded this last year. So I'd say that it is only a few years old. Very good info in the series.

[12tribes]

I just saw a Hope Channel talk with Jon Paulien and Graeme Bradford on the topic of Armageddon. It was very interesting.

The notation said Graeme Bradford is a faculty member at Avondale College.

I wonder if anybody here knows about Dr. Bradford, or studied with him, or can tell me if he's still actively teaching at Avondale. [i think the Hope Channel program might have been a rerun.]

Thanks for your help, you Aussies. [or anybody else who can contribute]

I have seen him preach as I come from Sydney near Avondale about 2 hrs. I know that he does not believe in a literal 2 apartment sanctuary in heaven.

[Jeannieb43]

Very interesting. Sometime when I have some spare time I'd like to watch that whole series on DVD or otherwise. I think there's an online location also for it. Thebattleofarmageddon.com

This is the website Jon Paulien advertised at the end of the Hope Channel program.

Both of these men seem to be experts on the subject of Armageddon and the book of Revelation.

[Alchemy]

Isn't that Des Ford's teaching? That there isn't a 2 apartment Sanctuary in Heaven?

Clearly unBiblical, but it's the only way to make his scrabble game explanation work. Christ goes from the courtyard on earth directly into the Most Holy Place in Heaven.

But, in Hebrews 9:1-5, the entire sanctuary is described mentioning the Holy Place first (verses 1-2) and the Most Holy Place second. (verses 3-5) Then in Hebrews 9:6-7 the entire ministry of the sanctuary is described with the ministry of the Holy Place mentioned first in 9:6, and in 9:7 the ministry of the Most Holy Place is mentioned second.

With this context so strongly established in the first seven verses of chapter 9 of Hebrews, there just isn't any way around a two apartment sanctuary in Heaven.

[Gibs]

Personally I would be very careful with G. Bradfords teaching. You might look into this as this is what I see and EGW predicted.

http://propheticparallels.com/book_1/appendix_b.html

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

Isn't that Des Ford's teaching? That there isn't a 2 apartment Sanctuary in Heaven?

Clearly unBiblical, but it's the only way to make his scrabble game explanation work. Christ goes from the courtyard on earth directly into the Most Holy Place in Heaven.

But, in Hebrews 9:1-5, the entire sanctuary is described mentioning the Holy Place first (verses 1-2) and the Most Holy Place second. (verses 3-5) Then in Hebrews 9:6-7 the entire ministry of the sanctuary is described with the ministry of the Holy Place mentioned first in 9:6, and in 9:7 the ministry of the Most Holy Place is mentioned second.

With this context so strongly established in the first seven verses of chapter 9 of Hebrews, there just isn't any way around a two apartment sanctuary in Heaven.

When you make a copy of an original, and if you see something in the copy, what would you expect the original to have?

ESV | ‎Re 11:19 "Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple."

Which part of the Tabernacle was the ark in?

‎‎ESV | ‎Re 4:5 "From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God,"

Which part of the Tabernacle had the 7-branched candlestick?

[12tribes]

They teach in that Revelation series that Revelation 9 is still in the future although they did not touch on the time periods mentioned in Revelation 9. If that is future then the time periods also have to be future and this:-

Revelation 11:18-19 KJV

(18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

(19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

This is the 7th trumpet talking about the judgement and the temple which began 1844

[Alchemy]

Amen to that.

You know, Abraham misunderstood the promise of God to him and made a big mistake with Ishmael. Yet, in Genesis 20:7 God calls him a prophet.

Prophets are not infallible, but God will keep His own word even if the prophet misunderstands. I am sure that even if there is a misunderstanding on Ellen White's part somewhere, God will straighten it out.

[Jeannieb43]

This is the 7th trumpet talking about the judgement and the temple which began 1844

Can you please point out where in the Bible is the date 1844 prophesied. I don't think there is a Scriptural basis anywhere for the date 1844.

[but please believe me, I am no expert on Bible prophecy. This is just what I've understood from many years of sitting in Bible classes taught by experts.]

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: 12tribes

This is the 7th trumpet talking about the judgement and the temple which began 1844

Can you please point out where in the Bible is the date 1844 prophesied. I don't think there is a Scriptural basis anywhere for the date 1844.

[but please believe me, I am no expert on Bible prophecy. This is just what I've understood from many years of sitting in Bible classes taught by experts.]

The 2300 days in Daniel 8. Also the 7o weeks are a part of the 2300 days because the Bible says the 70 weeks were determined or cut off, they were cut off from the 2300 days giving both the same start date.

[Gibs]

Jeannieb43

The starting date for the prophecy of the 2300 and the 70 wks was BC 457 the decree of Darius to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.

Da 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

That adds to 69 wks of yrs. and then, the 70'th,

Da 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The prophecy was perfectly fulfilled, Jesus died the middle yr of that 70'th wk..

490 yrs from 2300 and from the end of the 70'th wk then 1810 more yrs.

It is refuted by most non SDA's but is because they are not taught the principles of discerning prophecy.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Jeannieb43]

Thank you.

Yes, I know the 2300 day prophecy and its timeline. Learned it in church school and college many years ago. I guess what has caused some recently to question the 1844 portion of that prophecy is that there's a difference of opinion as to what is meant to take place in 1844.

Not intending to get off topic here. Sorry.

[Alchemy]

Thank you.

Yes, I know the 2300 day prophecy and its timeline. Learned it in church school and college many years ago. I guess what has caused some recently to question the 1844 portion of that prophecy is that there's a difference of opinion as to what is meant to take place in 1844.

Not intending to get off topic here. Sorry.

Can you explain what you understand the confusion to be over?

What are the different events that supposedly took place in 1844?

Can you help us out with some of the reasoning behind these other ideas?

[Lysimachus]

I have seen him preach as I come from Sydney near Avondale about 2 hrs. I know that he does not believe in a literal 2 apartment sanctuary in heaven.

He even believes Ellen White makes some mistakes in her writings. This rose a bunch of red-flags with me.

[Lysimachus]

Isn't that Des Ford's teaching? That there isn't a 2 apartment Sanctuary in Heaven?

Clearly unBiblical, but it's the only way to make his scrabble game explanation work. Christ goes from the courtyard on earth directly into the Most Holy Place in Heaven.

But, in Hebrews 9:1-5, the entire sanctuary is described mentioning the Holy Place first (verses 1-2) and the Most Holy Place second. (verses 3-5) Then in Hebrews 9:6-7 the entire ministry of the sanctuary is described with the ministry of the Holy Place mentioned first in 9:6, and in 9:7 the ministry of the Most Holy Place is mentioned second.

With this context so strongly established in the first seven verses of chapter 9 of Hebrews, there just isn't any way around a two apartment sanctuary in Heaven.

Problem is, they get caught up in the semantics of the Greek, and will argue endlessly about it. Not even Marvin Moore, in his book, "The Case for the Investigative Judgment" believes in a 2-apartment sanctuary, and he gives all kinds of strange arguments from Hebrews to "prove" it, but they did not convince me.

But you want to know how I settle the score Alchemy? Forget Hebrews. Revelation 11:19 and 15:5 completely dismantle the notion that there is no two-apartment sanctuary.

• "And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple NAOS -- "inner shrine" of the tabernacle [ENTIRE SANCTUARY] of the testimony in heaven was opened:" (Rev. 15:5)

Notice that the inner shrine of God's entire tabernacle was "opened". It was not the "tabernacle" that was "opened", but the "naos" or inner shrine. We find the naos opening up also in Revelation 11:19.

It's not hard at all to see from Revelation a two-apartment sanctuary.

[Lysimachus]

Let's also remember that Jesus was never "locked" in the Holy Place before 1844, or "locked" in the Most Holy Place after 1844.

The primary concept is that prior to 1844, Christ was performing a "Holy Place ministration", or a "first apartment ministration", regardless of where He was standing. After 1844, Christ was performing a "Most Holy Place ministration", or "second apartment ministration"--performing the Antitypical Day of Atonement--regardless of where He was physically standing.

What transpired in 1844 was a heavenly ceremonial procession--a parade like of all heavenly intelligences. Where the Father literally got up off His throne and sat down in the Most Holy Place, and then the Son followed after and went in before His Father. This heavenly event was an outward memorial, and outward celebration of commemorating a monumental and sobering event that was transpiring in regards to the record books in heaven and the judgment of the Little Horn and the Saints.

Make sense?

People get "hung up" on the fact as to whether Jesus was only in the Holy Place before 1844, or only in the Most Holy Place after 1844. No need to worry about all that. Even Moses, who was a type of Christ, dedicated all the sanctuary furniture in Numbers 7--that included the Most Holy Place.

We have no need to get cornered by the critics on these semantic diversionary arguments. They are used to distract us.

[Gibs]

Lys,

I agree totally, Amen.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[12tribes]

Problem is, they get caught up in the semantics of the Greek, and will argue endlessly about it. Not even Marvin Moore, in his book, "The Case for the Investigative Judgment" believes in a 2-apartment sanctuary, and he gives all kinds of strange arguments from Hebrews to "prove" it, but they did not convince me.

But you want to know how I settle the score Alchemy? Forget Hebrews. Revelation 11:19 and 15:5 completely dismantle the notion that there is no two-apartment sanctuary.

• "And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple NAOS -- "inner shrine" of the tabernacle [ENTIRE SANCTUARY] of the testimony in heaven was opened:" (Rev. 15:5)

Notice that the inner shrine of God's entire tabernacle was "opened". It was not the "tabernacle" that was "opened", but the "naos" or inner shrine. We find the naos opening up also in Revelation 11:19.

It's not hard at all to see from Revelation a two-apartment sanctuary.

[Alchemy]

Let's also remember that Jesus was never "locked" in the Holy Place before 1844, or "locked" in the Most Holy Place after 1844.

The primary concept is that prior to 1844, Christ was performing a "Holy Place ministration", or a "first apartment ministration", regardless of where He was standing. After 1844, Christ was performing a "Most Holy Place ministration", or "second apartment ministration"--performing the Antitypical Day of Atonement--regardless of where He was physically standing.

What transpired in 1844 was a heavenly ceremonial procession--a parade like of all heavenly intelligences. Where the Father literally got up off His throne and sat down in the Most Holy Place, and then the Son followed after and went in before His Father. This heavenly event was an outward memorial, and outward celebration of commemorating a monumental and sobering event that was transpiring in regards to the record books in heaven and the judgment of the Little Horn and the Saints.

Make sense?

People get "hung up" on the fact as to whether Jesus was only in the Holy Place before 1844, or only in the Most Holy Place after 1844. No need to worry about all that. Even Moses, who was a type of Christ, dedicated all the sanctuary furniture in Numbers 7--that included the Most Holy Place.

We have no need to get cornered by the critics on these semantic diversionary arguments. They are used to distract us.

I agree completely.

I am also aware of the Greek word and definition game they play.