there must be some way for us to hold each other accountable

[LifeHiscost]

I would like to discuss this comment with hopes of shared experiences where either positive or negative responses have developed. This attitude of holding others accountable to how we may determine would be best for them, strikes me as contrary to the following principle.

[:"red"] "And why worry about a speck in your friend's eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying, `Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,' when you can't see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log from your own eye; then perhaps you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye." [/] Matt 7:3-5 NLT

[Bravus]

IMO there are occassions - few and unusual - on which we are called to hold each other accountable[1]. There's a specific procedure laid out for that in scripture in Matthew 18 (although, now that I look at it, that passage is about 'If a brother sins against you' - nothing really to do with what he's doing to himself... interesting)

But far more often we're encouraged to look at our own actions, attitudes and beliefs. There are a few issues there:

1. Jesus is just being pragmatic with the 'speck and beam' comment: people know how to spot a hypocrite, and you can pretty much guarantee that they'll reject an attempt at holding them accountable if it comes from one. Just in terms of actually being effective, it's important to work on ourselves first, so that we can say, not 'I'm perfect', but 'I'm working and struggling on this issue right alongside you'.

2. Our own actions are the only ones we can change directly - with everyone else it's indirect and uncertain whether it will work. So if we want to make the world a better place, we do it best and most efficiently by starting with what we can do.

All this stuff is also much more often caught than taught, by children and by everyone else. If you want people to live a certain way, show that you're doing it, and that it works and brings you joy.

[1] I hate that word, because it applies metaphors of business and accounting to human relationships

[Clio]

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SNIP.......

But

far

more often we're encouraged to look at our own actions, attitudes and beliefs. There are a few issues there:

1. Jesus is just being pragmatic with the 'speck and beam' comment: people know how to spot a hypocrite, and you can pretty much guarantee that they'll reject an attempt at holding them accountable if it comes from one. Just in terms of actually being effective, it's important to work on ourselves first, so that we can say, not 'I'm perfect', but 'I'm working and struggling on this issue right alongside you'.

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In my own experience, real change came about in the life of those I most desired to change, when I quit praying "Change them..." and started, most reluctantly at first... but still started, praying, "Change Me". We are not truly accountable for any actions, statements, beliefs but our own. Our neighbors salvation and the fruits thereof are not ours to work out with fear and trembling nor in righteous indignation.

*sigh* and I can be sooooo good with trembling, righteous indignation on behalf of my neighbor.... Ugh.

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2. Our own actions are the only ones we can change directly - with everyone else it's indirect and uncertain whether it will work. So if we want to make the world a better place, best and most efficient by starting with what

we

can do.

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I agree with you in principle, and the general direction you're going Bravus, but you must have more will power than I do. For me... even with the best of intentions, I cannot change certain things about myself. One of them is not interrupting my husband when he is talking. He doesn't say much to me about it... but I take the injunctions in Ephesians seriously about a wife respecting her husband.

And for him, one of the things that he really feels whether he consciously acknowledges or recognizes it or not, is being interrupted. I'm dreadful about it. I struggle and struggle and struggle with it... because I do hold him in respect... but... sometimes it takes him SO long to finish a sentence... (He's from the South... I'm from California...see the problem here?)

Sorry, I digress. My real point is I can't change this about myself. I've been trying for 20 years. BUT JESUS CAN and as I've become more aware of what it's doing to my husband, I've started praying the prayer that goes like this....

"*sigh* Jesus? Erhm.... this isn't working out so well... I can't control it. SO... I give it to You. You control it for me please. Change me. Change me, and use the change in me to Your glory."

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All this stuff is also much more often caught than taught, by children and by everyone else. If you want people to live a certain way, show that you're doing it, and that it works and brings you joy.

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Can you explain what you mean by caught than taught?

Oh... and while I agree that an example is the best way, I'm not sure that the example we are doing it is the best... I'd rather give glory to Jesus that HE is doing it in me... because then I am free in Him to live and not be chained by the doing...

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[1] I hate that word, because it applies metaphors of business and accounting to human relationships

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Well it does... and I guess that's why I'm so against accountability for someone else's actions, beliefs, behaviours. I accepted that accountability for my children, and to teach them about Jesus... I didn't accept it for anyone else.

I also believe that Jesus is perfectly capable of ensuring that each who truly seeks Him finds Him. He's also got more tools than I will ever have to effect true heart change and from that true behaviour changes. But I do think prayer is something that opens ways for Him to work in other's lives that might not ordinarily be there.

Hmmmm... a dream I had several months ago might help explain my thinking on some of this. Abba Father has things He wants to bring to fruition in the world or in the life of someone. But He's playing by the rules... He can't do anything until He is asked to do so... Free Will... it's a reality in Abba Father's system of government.

Prayer is the way in which we make a way for the plan in the Will of Abba Father to manifest in this realm. We open the way from the heart of Abba to the heart of the one for whom we pray... whether it be ourself, someone else, our city, town, country, workplace....

So I guess since I don't believe it is up to me to determine who is accountable for what, I don't have the same antipathy toward that word you do, because I don't choose to apply it to relationships.

Sorry, I know it's a long post... but having walked some of this out... this is what I've learned, and believe with all my heart.

clio

[Bravus]

Hi Clio

Thanks so much for those clarifications, and I heartily agree:

1. It's Jesus who moves in us and makes change possible, we don't do it by gritting our teeth and *deciding* to change.

2. And therefore the example we show is not even really an example of right living, it's an example of the power of Jesus in a life where that power is given free rein.

I hope it was there implicitly (it was in my head at least!), but thanks so much for making it explicit.

[Clio]

I figured we were probably on the same page... but I did want to throw my thoughts in there...

But I think I'll try and keep my posts shorter... As you can tell, when I get passionate about a subject... I tend to have lots to say about it...

hehehehehe....

*counting words* Oh good.... under 100

A writer's occupational hazard...

clio

[Neil D]

Maybe we need to understand what "accountablity" is all about?

Accountablity for me may mean something totally different to you.

Without looking at a dictionary, I would have to say that accountablity is to make know plainly without condemning the person that there is something wrong in his life. Even a "I just hate that you use the word "hate" all the time." is an accountablity statement, if said without the rancor and degration that we are prone to do...[not that you use the word hate all the time, either.] Sometimes, accountablity is a bit more involved, where you must explain, with time place and circumstance, when something happens [women are terrific people for pulling out time place and circumstance...too much so it seems at times ]

Just some thoughts of mine...expand if you will but please, don't put words in my mouth.. [a future accountablity statement,...or is it a trust?]

[Bravus]

Sounds fair to me, Neil.

I just thought on the bus on the way in to work: my feeling is that it's by definition impossible to do the Matthew 18 process in an open web forum. Does that therefore mean that we should refrain from accountability discussions here, and keep them for face-to-face contexts? I dunno - time for Jesus to come back and straighten us out, seems to me... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Nicodema]

Depends on what we propose to hold another accountable for. In a nutshell, I believe I have the right to hold another accountable for anything directly impacting myself, which boils down to how they treat me. That doesn't mean they will necessarily care about it, or change what they are doing, but anything directly impacting me is automatically my business, as is anything involving my name or my person or my family or my property.

Beyond that, when it comes to someone else's private life, it becomes a question of how invested am I in their life. If I'm not there offering my hand stretched out to help, to ease their burdens, to make life better for them, to serve them in Christ as neighbor, brother, or sister, then I have no place to stretch out my hand to demand an accounting of their personal lives or choices. We simply don't know what other people are up against in their lives. What seems utterly simple to me might be incredibly complicated for them, and vice versa. Instead of judging someone's dirty house, why not offer to come over and clean for them and give them a break? Instead of judging someone's food choices, why not invite them to a wonderful dinner that would make the most die-hard carnivore consider going veggie? Instead of criticizing the poor single mom who leaves a 9-year-old in charge of little brother and sister when she has to walk to the corner store to get them some food, why not offer to stay with her kids or share your sitter? My point is, in every case where a hand is stretched out to "smack" someone down for doing "wrong", it could instead be stretched out to help, to heal, to make a situation better, so why not focus there instead of on "holding people accountable"? How accountable are we holding ourselves for what we COULD be doing for people we criticize and find fault with, but instead are too busy criticizing and finding fault to see what we could be doing?

Well that's enough of my opinion for now ...

[Bravus]

Nico - yeah, as I noted, the Matthew 18 thing relates to someone who sins directly against you, and so I agree with your first para above. In fact, we often expand it beyond that, but that case is what it was *for*.

I agree wholeheartedly with your second para too!

[Neil D]

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Beyond that, when it comes to someone else's private life, it becomes a question of how invested am I in their life.

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Nico, I want to limit my reaction to this to just this board.

Clarify this a bit...are you saying that if we know someone on this board fairly well, [and we have varying degrees as to how well we know a person here] that we should hold them accountable for what they say? How much do we hold someone accountable here on this board since the big varable is the 'how well we know them' factor? If we don't know them well, or they are a person whose involvment on this board is in metoric rise [say Bob Sands], do we let slid their strange statements?

In my view, just getting a clarification is holding some people accountable...Others, you might have to deal a bit more drastically with thier ultra [insert perspective] view.

[Bravus]

Not speaking in Nico's behalf, but I understood her to be saying more than 'knowing someone well', but 'being on their side'. All that stuff about holding out the hand to help rather than to slap.

One way of operationalising that for me, here, is that i should really only be offering that kind of guidance/instruction/support/counsel to those with whom I'm generally found in agreement. So, succinctly, and using terms I know are too narrow, let the right challenge the right and the left challenge the left. That's be hard, and be a major change of practice here, but would have the potential to lead to a lot more harmony. And to a lot more growth: because by challenging the people I agree with, I'm challenging myself too.

[Nicodema]

I was speaking in general, not just about on the board. It was only my opinion. Just forget about it.

[Clio]

Hey Nico... I think you have it right... what a wonderful way to live... if we would only do it more.... we in this cas meaning me....

clio

[Nicodema]

Ditto here. It's sometimes hard to know where to draw that line though. As in, it becomes too easy to rationalize "criticizing those who criticize".

[LifeHiscost]

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SO... I give it to You. You control it for me please. Change me. Change me, and use the change in me to Your glory."

then I am free in Him to live and not be chained by the doing...

Quote:

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Free Will... it's a reality in Abba Father's system of government.

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Bingo! Ta Da!! And the winner is...

[:"red"] "The one who sins is the one who dies. The child will not be punished for the parent's sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child's sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own goodness, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness." [/] Ezek 18:20 NLT

Since that seems to be only fair, why would we be given accountability for someone else's deeds when we neither receive any reward for their good deeds, nor are we asked to pay the price for their nastiness?

[LifeHiscost]

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Jesus is just being pragmatic with the 'speck and beam' comment:

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Pragmatic: practical as opposed to idealistic

Websters 9th New Collegiate

I'm supposing this is the meaning you intended for that word to be understood. So I'm thinking, 'Here is the King of Glory, trying to put in as short and concise a way as possible, principles that will aid and abet holy living that will last through eternity, for all who will believe His words. And there not to be understood as ideal????

[:"red"] "But He answered and said, "It is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."" [/]

Matt 4:4 NKJV

[Nicodema]

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why would we be given accountability for someone else's deeds when we neither receive any reward for their good deeds, nor are we asked to pay the price for their nastiness?

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excellent point.

[Tom Wetmore]

Nico,

I think you have hit upon the key to this as I see it. Accountability and responsibility are in a fundamental sense opposite sides of the same coin of mutual and reciprocal relationship. And that is the key to accountability - relationship. Relationship defines and dictates accountability both in substance and degree. I have no accountability to someone I do not know, have never met and have no contact with or ever will. However, my wife with whom I have a close, longterm and intimate relationship should put our accountability to each other into a complete and all-encompassing realm. This is the oft repeated Biblical metaphor of our relationship with God which we all should aspire.

All other relationships would seem to fall in between these two extremes on a vast continuum. As Jesus' statement suggests, even in our relationships with our friends or brothers there is room for restraint in imposing accountability. And that raises another element as I see it. Accountability is not naturally or effectively imposed. It requires relational permission, either expressly or by implication of the nature of the relationship. As between friends, if one has not invited another into the realm of ones private life and given the other permission to hold one accountable about ones private habits, any effort on other person's part to seek accountability becomes intrusive and an imposition that could become offensive, causing a person to naturally become defensive.

This brings me to the delicate issue of accountability among church members. Accountability is only possible if there is relationship and only to the extent and depth of such relationship. One seriously has to take the time to get to know another before ever presuming to hold that person accountable for anything. Much of the conflict along these lines in churches is the offense of presuming relationship where none really exists.

Tom

:2cents:

[Nicodema]

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Much of the conflict along these lines in churches is the offense of presuming relationship where none really exists.

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Yes, and for the record: "church buddies" is not really a relationship. Just because you chat it up with someone one day each week does not mean there's a relationship there. A relationship is when you invite that person over, get to know them, let them know you, get involved in each other's lives, communicate and interact outside of the foyer or fellowship hall or sabbath/Bible Study hours.

I wonder how many who attend church are really hungering for fellowship at this level. Just about everyone outside the "in group" I would imagine?

[Tom Wetmore]

Exactly!!!

To get to that point we have to be on the unity path Jesus prayed for us to find in John 17. I think our deepest longing is to find that oneness both with God and each other. And a community that is truly the body of Christ will be so obvious that everyone will know they are Jesus followers because they love one another. A love relationship takes a lot of time and effort. We are just kidding ourselves if we think that just going to church together really brings us together.

Tom

[Nicodema]

So, Tom, we are both on the same page here. Where is a good place to begin to build such a community? To find that sense of oneness with both God and each other? I know I personally am frustrated in that I am not in a position to offer hospitality or invite people over due to my living situation -- long story, not going to go into it here -- but it also seems to me frequently that everyone at church has their own closed little circle, whether it's their family or family and a couple other families as friends, and there's just no room for anyone else.

The closest I've come, literally, is the "casual" church I've been going to. They meet at noon or later and hang out on the farm where they meet, having potluck every Sabbath & talking & stuff. It's a small group so we all get to know each other to a certain degree, but for me anyway it's still arms-length, church-confined; still hasn't crossed the line into real life though it's more than what I have gotten at other churches on Sabbath alone.

Anyway, do you have any ideas, suggestions, etc. for fostering that sort of transition out of church-buddies into real-life-involvement with one another as a community? I sure don't. I hope someone does.

[Nicodema]

p.s. - time for a subject line change on this thread! (*points overhead*)

[Bravus]

May I suggest we start a new thread with this title? I think it's an issue well worth discussing, and many who would be interested in it might be put off by the prior history and title of this thread.

[Nicodema]

I wonder if Stan could siphon off the relevant posts, beginning with Tom's post addressed to me above, and create a new thread with this new subject line? I know the software here allows something of that nature to be done... would be a lot easier than trying to reproduce a conversation already in progress....

[there buster]

M. Scott Peck has a whole book, "The Different Drum" about what Community is and how it can be achieved.

I found it compelling because it turns out that the road to Community for a group is almost identical to the road to Intimacy for two, and I am familiar with the latter, and am in the continuing process of buildling and maintaining the former.

Intimacy is the sixth out of seven levels of relationship. Few, very few people are willing to do what it takes to achieve either intimacy or community.

The very first step is to understand what healthy interpersonal relationships require--to understand that respect is a virtue and reciprocal in healthy relationships, while the much vaunted tolerance is one-sided and generally a vice.

The second step is to realize that true nurture and genuine respect are rare, they are not instinctive, and are rarely practiced, because we do not live in a healthy world. The good news is that they can be learned.