Should women wash the feet of men?

[Alchemy]

But the confusion is just as Laz stated earlier - "Seems like you're making something descriptive into something prescriptive."

That is a clear difference. If we take everything described in Scripture as prescribing what we are to do and as the only way to do things, we would still be wearing robes, walking everywhere we go and cooking over open fires. An example of such absolutism and extremism would take the WWJD idea and say that we all must cook fish over an open fire on the beach for breakfast, just as Jesus did. Fresh fish for breakfast for everyone. No exceptions allowed.

And if I understand your premise, because you see a couple verses describing two different women washing feet, you assume this is the prescribed role for women only. Well, Jesus broke that rule (assuming it was even a rule to begin with) by washing the feet of the disciples.

Hmmm...

Jesus didn't break that rule. Jesus washed the feet of men.

As far the Scriptures I quoted, they are there all the same. They were good enough for the Apostles, they are good enough for me.

I mean, Ellen White based her statement on Jesus getting His feet washed with the tears of a woman! The reference to the Book of Timothy was added by the Publishers.

But, Sister White said the Lord showed her it was a part of Gospel Order for women to wash the feet of men. The first sentence of the paragraph is very important.

This statement comes from Early Writings 117.1. (see also ExV54 37.2)

Alchemy wrote earlier in this thread; "Well, I see clearly in the New Testament, and in Ellen White's writings, that women are to wash the feet of men and NOT have men wash their feet."

[Nic Samojluk]

"Well, I see clearly in the New Testament, and in Ellen White's writings, that women are to wash the feet of men and NOT have men wash their feet."

Should we revive all the customs and traditions which were in vogue in New Testament times? How about forbiding women to speak in church--which Ellen White ignored--and polygamy, or slavery?

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Jesus didn't break that rule. Jesus washed the feet of men.

What rule would that be?

Rule of the Jewish religious leaders?

So if Christ didn't break a Jewish rule, should we still be following it?

How do we know all of the rules Christ broke or didn't break?

(inquiring minds want to know)

[Alchemy]

Quote:

Jesus didn't break that rule. Jesus washed the feet of men.

What rule would that be?

Rule of the Jewish religious leaders?

So if Christ didn't break a Jewish rule, should we still be following it?

How do we know all of the rules Christ broke or didn't break?

(inquiring minds want to know)

Ask Tom Wetmore, he's the one who brought it up!

So, what are your thoughts on the statement from Early Writings I referenced?

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted By: Alchemy

"Well, I see clearly in the New Testament, and in Ellen White's writings, that women are to wash the feet of men and NOT have men wash their feet."

Should we revive all the customs and traditions which were in vogue in New Testament times? How about forbiding women to speak in church--which Ellen White ignored--and polygamy, or slavery?

I find these questions worthless to the discussion I started.

All I was trying to say is that it is part of Gospel order for women in these days to wash the feet of men and not have men wash the feet of women.

If you don't get it, then you don't get it.

But, I truly believe if this practice had been preserved, we wouldn't be having the problem with WOPE we are having now.

So, what are your thoughts on the statement from Early Writings I referenced?

[CoAspen]

Classical avoidance!!

[Alchemy]

I disagree CoAspen.

I have stated clearly what I'm asking.

Should women wash the feet of men in the church without the men washing the feet of women?

I am not talking about men washing the feet of men, that is not the same thing. So, Mr. Wetmore trying to make such a connection was incorrect and I had replied as much back to him.

So then, when you asked me about it I simply referred you back to Mr. Wetmore as well.

I have referenced the Scriptures and Ellen White quite effectively so as to explain where I am coming from. I have not mentioned any Jewish Laws or anything else.

It's just that simple.

[Tom Wetmore]

Why do you think this is so important? And explain to us how you think that women washing men's feet would have avoided all this WO (or WOPE) issue.

[Alchemy]

Why do you think this is so important? And explain to us how you think that women washing men's feet would have avoided all this WO (or WOPE) issue.

With all due respect, I would like an answer to my questions.

Should women wash the feet of men in the church without the men washing the feet of the women?

What do you think of the statement from Ellen White I referenced to?

[Alchemy]

It is interesting that in Early Writings 117.1, Ellen White was shown the Gospel order of this principle I'm talking about based on John 12:3 alone. The reference to Timothy is in brackets because it was added by the Publishers.

[Tom Wetmore]

And you have had answers to you questions. It is now time for you to explain why you think the question is even relevant or important in the context of this whole discussion of WO.

Really, you are one that made that connection, so it would be well for us to understand why in order to further respond. It is a simply request for you to clarify yourself, since it seems a bit of a flimsy conclusion to have been reached on the "evidence" you have put forward. The apparent skepticism about your idea is from what appears to be a use of Scripture to bolster your own preconceived ideas rather than letting Scripture meaningfully speak for itself.

Technically, it is the vast difference between exegesis and eisegesis...

[Gordon1]

I personally believe that Biblically speaking, Women washing the feet of men is part of the New Testament Gospel order.

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted By: Alchemy

I personally believe that Biblically speaking, Women washing the feet of men is part of the New Testament Gospel order.

It seems you've drawn a fair conclusion based upon the Bible & SOP -

- that women may wash men's feet, along with partaking of the Lord's supper.

Originally Posted By: Alchemy

I believe if we had been practicing this as we should have, we wouldn't be having this problem with WOPE.

Interesting point here. In local SDA Churches, footwashing is termed the 'ordinance of humility'.

Concerning this, EGW states "I saw that His example should be as exactly followed as possible.." Early Writings 116, 117.

In all other visions, how often do we read such a powerful injunction: "as exactly followed as possible" ? I can't think of one.

So don't be deterred if human wisdom belittles your question - God has spoken.

By itself, women washing men's feet may not have stayed WOPE, just as present-day footwashing has not preserved humility or brotherly love in the local church.

Rather, if reverence for God's ways as holy, just and good had been preserved stone by stone, as a sure foundation

instead of simply as a form, WOPE would not enter the minds of the saints. Women washing men's feet are one of those many stones.

However, best to "Abstain from all appearance of evil." (1 Thessalonians 5:22) In those days adultery & fornication were not acceptable in the church, but today they're commonplace and too often excused - so better men and women are separate.

"Not touching."

Powerful post Gordon 1,

You are correct that foot washing hasn't kept pride out of the church, so the impact of having women wash the feet of men may not have turned out to have as much influence as I would have hoped for.

But, it does establish the correct Gospel order of equality. Equal doesn't mean the same. For instance; Everyone can't be the boss of a company. Someone has to be the workers who follow orders. (I know some people won't like my example, Oh well) There must be order and cooperation. In Heaven, there are different levels, or orders of angels. They are all equal, but not all the same.

So, I truly believe that this "equality" idea would have been settled long ago and could not be twisted so much now toward this WOPE idea.

As far as sexual immorality in the church, I hope it wasn't as bad then as now.

[Alchemy]

And you have had answers to you questions. It is now time for you to explain why you think the question is even relevant or important in the context of this whole discussion of WO.

Really, you are one that made that connection, so it would be well for us to understand why in order to further respond. It is a simply request for you to clarify yourself, since it seems a bit of a flimsy conclusion to have been reached on the "evidence" you have put forward. The apparent skepticism about your idea is from what appears to be a use of Scripture to bolster your own preconceived ideas rather than letting Scripture meaningfully speak for itself.

Technically, it is the vast difference between exegesis and eisegesis...

It is a rare occasion when you see a conclusion as flimsy as WOPE! Desmond Ford and a couple of others come to mind, but WOPE is straight from Pagan origins. There isn't any Biblical or SOP support for it.

My case for this practice is far and away stronger than WOPE.

[olger]

True, Alchemy. People eagerly seize upon abstract examples like Deborah in the Judges as an excuse for normalizing that which the Scriptures do not support.

As we approach the end of time, it will become more and more difficult to remain faithful to Scripture while remaining, in any degree, sympathetic to the prevailing culture.

[Tom Wetmore]

You might actually have a point if Deborah was the only woman ever in Scripture that was in a leadership position. Your arguments minimizing her position also ignore the role of a judge in Israel at that time.

Thinking forward to NT times, consider the women of Romans 16, especially Phoebe. And indeed there are more. But you have to take off the blinders and consider all of the evidence.

[Alchemy]

True, Alchemy. People eagerly seize upon abstract examples like Deborah in the Judges as an excuse for normalizing that which the Scriptures do not support.

As we approach the end of time, it will become more and more difficult to remain faithful to Scripture while remaining, in any degree, sympathetic to the prevailing culture.

Agreed.

I don't have much respect for any human cultures, of which the Seventh-day Adventist culture is the worst.

But, we need to witness to people where they are at and so we press on.

[Alchemy]

I don't have any blinders over my eyes.

[Tom Wetmore]

Would you know if you did?

[Nic Samojluk]

With all due respect, I would like an answer to my questions.

Should women wash the feet of men in the church without the men washing the feet of the women?

What do you think of the statement from Ellen White I referenced to?

My answer is NO. Look at Ellen White example. Did she ever wash the feet of men? If she didn't, then perhaps you are missing the point of her statement.

[olger]

Alch,

The principle in 1 Timothy 5 is one of hospitality and servitude. As in 1 Peter 3:4, these qualities get very high marks with the Father ("which is of great worth in God's sight").

Wise women will demonstrate these qualities throughout time in different ways.

g

[Nic Samojluk]

Alch,

The principle in 1 Timothy 5 is one of hospitality and servitude. As in 1 Peter 3:4, these qualities get very high marks with the Father ("which is of great worth in God's sight").

Wise women will demonstrate these qualities throughout time in different ways.

I admire your common sense approach to the study of the Bible!

[OzarkWoman]

Should be separate,

`oG

Why???

I think we should be able to wash the feet of anyone we choose, especially if we are trying to reconcile with someone because of something that may have happened in the past. In fact, I think we should be able to wash the feet of the pastor, but can't if he is in the room with couples or families.

[OzarkWoman]

Alch,

The principle in 1 Timothy 5 is one of hospitality and servitude. As in 1 Peter 3:4, these qualities get very high marks with the Father ("which is of great worth in God's sight").

Wise women will demonstrate these qualities throughout time in different ways.

g

You are very discrimatory person and not in a good way at all.