Christ the Son

[Gerr]

Since Jesus in His divinity is as eternal as the Father, how is He the Son?

[Gibs]

Because there was a time back, we know not how long, He now Jesus proceeded and came forth from the Father.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

In His foreknowledge the Father knew He would need a Redeemer and so He brought Him out of Himself. Not a created or born One but One of the His Substance. He too then being of eternity. In truth then it is said He is God with us.

Before Bethlehem He was called LORD of Hosts,

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

And in that verse which says the same as the "Shema" Due 6:4 but in more detail we see that the King of Israel and LORD of Hosts are one. Really which one is speaking? I would imagine Jesus. This verse makes it more clear

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Then Jesus states it outright,

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

And then,

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

And then

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

And Sister White stated,

The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes.--The Signs of the Times, Nov. 27, 1893, p. 54. {7ABC 437.3}

And there is more, but is not that sufficient?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Gerry,

While I agree that Jesus was begotten before time (e.g., before creation), I am open to the possibility that He is not as "eternal" as the Father. The very fact that He was begotten (not created) implies to me a beginning.

When discussing Proverbs 8, commentaries frequently refer to "Wisdom" as an allegory for Christ. To me, verses 22-31 imply a beginning. This beginning of the being who later became Jesus was before the first second of day one. This does not diminish the divinity of the being who became Christ - He is not a created being. He was not made out of "nothing" - He was made out of "God stuff". At the risk of sounding sacreligeous (I hope This doesn't offend), I look at it like an aomeba dividing; creating two seperate entities.

He co-reigned with the Father as God until He was incarnated as man through human birth. He was part of the Elohim referred to in Genesis. I may be mistaken; but I don't think scripture specifically refers to God as a Father until the New Testament. With the exception of Proverbs 30:4 ("Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Whose hands have gathered up the wind? Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is the name of his son? Surely you know!"), I couldn't find a reference alluding to the being who became Jesus as "the Son of God" in the OT, either.

I know this is a little wierd. It is a question that I have pondered for many years; and this is the best I have come up with in years of study.

[Gibs]

LORD of Hosts before Bethlehem was not a son in actuality as a son is a born one. He was not born at that time or was He a created One.

He became The Father's Son at Bethlehem, born of a woman, mankind, but His Father was God the Father. Realize too at this time Heaven was emptied of LORD of Hosts. That vestment of the Father Himself dwelt in the Boby of the man Jesus Christ, the son of Mary and the only begotten Son Of God the Father.

He hates sin, but He loves the sinner, and He gave Himself in the person of Christ, that all who would might be saved and have eternal blessedness in the kingdom of glory. What stronger or more tender language could have been employed than He has chosen in which to express His love toward us? He declares, "Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee." Isaiah 49:15. {SC 54.2}

The Father experienced it all, He knows us as well as the son, He was in Him!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

JoeMo, here is what the Bible says about how Jesus became the Son and how He was begotten.

ESV | ‎Heb 5:5 So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”; ‎‎6 as he says also in another place, “You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.”

ESV | ‎Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, ‎10 being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

The word prosagoreuo translated as "designated" also means - to give a name or title to—‘to call, to give a name to, to give a title to.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (402). New York: United Bible Societies.

Jesus was begotten & became God Son:

1) By appointment, Heb 5:5

2) By being given that title, Heb 5:10

3) By coming in the flesh, Mt 1:18,20

4) By declaration,Rom 1:3,4. The word horizo which is translated as "declared" in ESV also means - to appoint, to assign someone to a particular function/task/role.

He was "begotten" at the time He received His titles, e.g. when He was appointed priest, as mentioned in Heb 5.

[JoeMo]

Thanks Gerry,

Part of my question is a holdover from my time as a JW almost 40 years ago. No matter how Jesus became "the Christ", I know He is God; I know He is my Lord and Savior. I know He will be my King in the world to come!

Blessings,

JoeMo

[12tribes]

Jesus is God and God cannot be created or begotten literally. Jesus who is God humbled himself and stepped down which is contrasted with Satan who wanted to step up. To say that Jesus is literally begotten is to take away from the character of God

[Gibs]

He did however become the Father's only begotten Son at Bethlehem. A son is a born creature in our vernacular. He then had a Son born of Mary and He the Father was in Him besides being His very own Son.

The Father long before Bethlehem vested Himself in the one known as "LORD of Hosts". That is actually saying "Yahweh of Hosts". Jesus Himself said, "I proceeded forth from the God" and that the God sent Him.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

He wasn't born and He wasn't created then. So the fact remains the Father extended Himself into our Redeemer. Yes He gave of Himself. Realizing this answers a lot of questions. Yahweh of Hosts was one with the Father of the same substance. One of Himself that could be separated from Himself. God is a Spirit and so He can do this and besides nothing is impossible to Him.

Heaven was emptied of Yahweh of Hosts at Bethlehem and was then in Jesus Christ and so was and is God with us as now He is with by Spirit which He primarily is.

Verified,

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

What are you saying, Gibs? That God the Father cloned himself?

[Gibs]

What I am saying is that when Jesus stated He proceeded and came forth from God and then tells us I and my Father are one we can know they are of one substance.

Another statement by Jesus bears this out as He tells us I am the first, only way that can be is they are of one and the same substance.

I do not believe the term clone would fit here. God is not limited as we are and in His need for a Redeemer He gave of Himself.

Another way of seeing this is, Jesus telling us He came forth from God, then in time wise He was not first as a separate. Then Him telling us He is first then it rings true if we understand God brought Him from Himself being of one substance.

He wasn't born or He wasn't created we are to understand, Jesus though was born at the time of Bethlehem and then our Redeemer, LORD of Hosts came and dwelt in Jesus. Heaven was emptied of their great commander. We now understand that He then is God with us. A very absolute truism if we see it this way.

Scripture is very emphatic there is but one God and this must be how it is. I am not alone in seeing it this way by a long ways.

Even Sister White bears this out,

The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes.--The Signs of the Times, Nov. 27, 1893, p. 54. {7ABC 437.3}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

My question though is this: Since they are both eternal, HOW did Jesus become the Son? You mentioned the incarnation, but Jesus was already known as the Son before that.

[Gibs]

He became God's only begotten son being born of Mary. Yes I realize He was called the Son before Bethlehem but He was actually LORD of Hosts and since LORD in caps means Yahweh, He was actually "Yahweh" of Hosts. The Father was "Yahweh King of Israel"

Note in verse, "and His Redeemer the LORD of Hosts"

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

I don't object to calling Him God's son before Bethlehem as He was always projected that way as that was the mission of the plan of redemption if needed.

Here is some verses to reckon with Gerry and it looks to me as the time comes when Jesus has finished the mission He was sent to do He returns the Fathers vestment of Deity back,

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

We belong to the Prince of the Father and He will be our Great King for eternity. His, the Father's eternal rightly only begoten Son. I believe no doubt second in command then with the Father. Enoch will be in close in with the Prince too I find. Enoch is extra special I know. I can only say one day we'll see and be pleased.

Gerry that is my see of it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[12tribes]

JoeMo, here is what the Bible says about how Jesus became the Son and how He was begotten.

ESV | ‎Heb 5:5 So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”; ‎‎6 as he says also in another place, “You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.”

ESV | ‎Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, ‎10 being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

The word prosagoreuo translated as "designated" also means - to give a name or title to—‘to call, to give a name to, to give a title to.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (402). New York: United Bible Societies.

Jesus was begotten & became God Son:

1) By appointment, Heb 5:5

2) By being given that title, Heb 5:10

3) By coming in the flesh, Mt 1:18,20

4) By declaration,Rom 1:3,4. The word horizo which is translated as "declared" in ESV also means - to appoint, to assign someone to a particular function/task/role.

He was "begotten" at the time He received His titles, e.g. when He was appointed priest, as mentioned in Heb 5.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

JoeMo, here is what the Bible says about how Jesus became the Son and how He was begotten.

ESV | ‎Heb 5:5 So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”; ‎‎6 as he says also in another place, “You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.”

ESV | ‎Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, ‎10 being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

The word prosagoreuo translated as "designated" also means - to give a name or title to—‘to call, to give a name to, to give a title to.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (402). New York: United Bible Societies.

Jesus was begotten & became God Son:

1) By appointment, Heb 5:5

2) By being given that title, Heb 5:10

3) By coming in the flesh, Mt 1:18,20

4) By declaration,Rom 1:3,4. The word horizo which is translated as "declared" in ESV also means - to appoint, to assign someone to a particular function/task/role.

He was "begotten" at the time He received His titles, e.g. when He was appointed priest, as mentioned in Heb 5.