Is It The Disregard, Or -

[Gibs]

Yes is it the disregard of some scripture that don't suit our way of wanting to see things is why we have so much disagreeance?

Or is it some find that some scriptures out or negate some others and are not applicable to the question no more.

When we are told this, - - 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Any who feel up to it, what is your thinking on this?

Should we not all more easily come to harmony on especially the important things that pertain to life eternal.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Yes is it the disregard of some scripture that don't suit our way of wanting to see things is why we have so much disagreeance?

No, not disregard.

A really easy answer......Interpretation!!!!!

All individuals have the capacity to read, analyze and interpret for them selves.

To some a glass is half full, for others half empty.

Eye of the beholder!

[Gail]

Is there a problem with that- interpretation? If so, what is the problem and what is the answer?

[CoAspen]

No and yes!

If we agreed on everything of what value would our capacity to think, reason, etc?

If we believe our own personal interpretation is the correct one and all others are wrong...well....

Don't mix interpretation and opinion!

[Gibs]

Does not the Word interprets it's self.

"Lead the minds of the youth from truth to truth, up higher and higher, showing them how scripture interprets scripture, one passage being the key to other passages. Thus the Scripture itself will be the educating power, holding the thoughts in captivity to Christ."--Letter 27a, 1892. {Ev 581.1}

"You need to come into harmony with your brethren. You may take certain views of Scripture and, searching the Bible in the light of your ideas, may gather together a large number of texts and claim that they mean this and that, and call for anyone to prove to you that your views are incorrect. But what influence could anyone have upon your mind, when he takes the same scriptures and interprets and applies them differently? Both of you claim to found your views on the Bible." {14MR 180.2}

So we have to work these things out in love and His Spirit as the guide to the truth of the matter. It just may not be the popular view.

Here is a verse to help us on this,

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

I love that verse and that last part is also a promise, "shew you things to come"!

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Here is a worthwhile note on this verse,

the natural man. Psuchikos, the animal man, one who lives in a natural state, and under the influence of his animal passions; for psuche means the inferior and sensual part of man, in opposition to the nous understanding, or pneuma, the spirit.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

This is why we must ask for His Spirit to guide us into His Truth of scripture and then allow His Spirit to inform us aright. This is a prayer of sincerity.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

So we have to work these things out....

And when I get to heaven, with that big fat star in my crown, I can sang - "Oh, that will be glory for me, glory for me, glory for me."

Here's Paul:

Gal 6:14 But far be it from me to glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

1 Cor 1:29 so that no one may glory before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who glories glory in the Lord."

[Gibs]

One Bible writer, prophet or Apostle doesn't disagree with another and it helps us to realize that. Each takes us into a further see of the whole picture and that is what we need. We need the complete aspect on each topic addressed, here a little and there a little. The whole understanding is not gotten until we do. one or two verses by one prophet may give us the wrong impression.

" Those who have been educated in the truth by precept and example, should make great allowance for others who have had no knowledge of the Scriptures except through the interpretations given by ministers and church members, and who have received traditions and fables as Bible truth. They are surprised by the presentation of truth; it is as a new revelation to them, and they cannot bear to have all the truth, in its most striking character, presented to them at the outset. All is new and strange, and wholly unlike that which they have heard from their ministers; and they are inclined to believe what the ministers have told them,--that Seventh-day Adventists are infidels, and do not believe the Bible. Let the truth be presented as it is in Jesus, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little." {CW 59.4}

That little piece from Sister White is just as applicable among us too to come into greater harmony and the real truth of any subject.

We want to grow and we want to grow in His Truth of things. We know many deceivers are out and around us at all times so it behooves us to go to His Word with His Spirit for our guide that we be guided into all truth of that matter and any we get into.

Previously learned things may have to be unlearned and a relearning comes in.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

I agree wholeheartedly with CoAspen - interpretation makes all the difference in the world. If the Word so readily interpreted itself, we would not have over 40,000 Christian denominations, including close to a dozen "flavors of Adventism. A lot of interpretation is based on how we view God. Do we Love Him or fear Him? Is He a loving Father or a demanding taskmaster? Is He looking for a reason to save us or a reason to condemn us? How we answer these types of questions strongly influences how we interpret His word.

Take for example Hebrews 6:4-8 and 10:26-31 (You can read them - it will make this post too long to show them here). These verses literally scared the "hell" out of me for my first 30 years as an Adventist. Evangelists, pastors, and SS teachers would intimidate people by using these verses to "prove that, it you sinned after baptism, you could be doomed, because you had publicly put Christ to shame and trampled on His blood; and you had nothing to look forward to but certain burning, because there was no sacrifice for sin left.

As my relationship with God recently deepened, He led me to read Hebrews again in its entirety; and put these verses into context rather than look at them in isolation. As it turns out, the entire Book of Hebrews is dedicated to explaining how Christ is the all-encompassing sacrifice for all sin - past, present, and future. The writer of Hebrews is telling them in the verses above that, if they return to the old sacrificial system (i.e., counting their works as a requirement for salvation), they were essentially saying that "no,Christ's sacrifice is NOT enough, I must work for my salvation" The writer was warning them that, if they counted on their own works for salvation, they were rejecting the sacrifice of Christ and putting themselves back under the law; and Christ's sacrifice no longer applied to them.

I now find these verses a comfort rather than a threat. Does that make sense?

[Gibs]

JoeMo, You know the Words of Jesus when He stated few would find the narrow way.

Then it hit me why. The great majority is not allowing the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth. He has laid us a promise that He the Holy Spirit would. It is apparent then that all are not led of His Spirit. Actually the great majority as He tells us it would be the few.

That is a serious thought to take a hold of is it not?

On if we sin after baptism or conversion, it means back on the knees and repentance of it.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Real unity will never be in this world but by that few Jesus speaks of I am afraid.

We all must however to be ministers of the truth making sure we teach the truth as it is a grievious thing to teach error. We would be held accountable for any soul we caused to be lost.

That is another serious thought.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Hey Gibs,

I like your thought about "The great majority is not allowing the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth. He has laid us a promise that He the Holy Spirit would. It is apparent then that all are not led of His Spirit. Actually the great majority as He tells us it would be the few." I agree that few listen to the Holy Spirit, because they let a denomination, or a pastor, or an evangelist guide them. The Holy Spirit is much less forceful; and sometimes it's difficult to hear the "still small" voice of God's Spirit over the voices coming over the microphone or through the written page. It is while we are alone in private prayer and/or study on the Bible that we can hear the Spirit best.

In those times, the Spirit tells me how loved I am, how He loves our time together, and how I am to understand and interpret the Word when I am contemplating a perceived conflict. Funny thing is, He never condemns me about anything; He just woos me closer and closer. Turning my mind away from myself and towards Him defines repentance for me.

[Gibs]

Some clarification by Sister White,

"The office of the Holy Spirit is distinctly specified in the words of Christ: "When He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." John 16:8. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin. If the sinner responds to the quickening influence of the Spirit, he will be brought to repentance and aroused to the importance of obeying the divine requirements. {AA 52.2}

To the repentant sinner, hungering and thirsting for righteousness, the Holy Spirit reveals the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. "He shall receive of Mine, and shall show it unto you," Christ said. "He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 16:14; 14:26. {AA 52.3}

The Spirit is given as a regenerating agency, to make effectual the salvation wrought by the death of our Redeemer. The Spirit is constantly seeking to draw the attention of men to the great offering that was made on the cross of Calvary, to unfold to the world the love of God, and to open to the convicted soul the precious things of the Scriptures. {AA 52.4}

Having brought conviction of sin, and presented before the mind the standard of righteousness, the Holy Spirit withdraws the affections from the things of this earth and fills the soul with a desire for holiness. "He will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13), the Saviour declared. If men are willing to be molded, there will be brought about a sanctification of the whole being. The Spirit will take the things of God and stamp them on the soul. By His power the way of life will be made so plain that none need err therein. {AA 52.5}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[LynnDel]

Maybe someone has said this already, so I apologize if I'm repeating what someone has already said, but a big problem with various interpretations is that often the interpreter looks for the nuance of meaning that supports his or her already in-place position. That's one of the main reasons for so many Bible translations and so many denominations. If we all searched the Scriptures with the eye of a learner, with sincere prayers for guidance, instead of looking for texts to bolster our own opinions or align with our own comfort level, we would all be, if not on the same page, at least in the same chapter of the book.

We are all in different rates of progress as to our understanding, so we need to allow that in our discussions with those who appear to have differing opinions. That's something like the Romans 14:1 quote at the top of this page.

LD

[CoAspen]

Excellent!!

It's been said often, but bears repeating often!!

[Gibs]

LD, It certainly is a great problem about unity of belief and understanding of what scripture tells us. His Word is truth and all was given for our good and by God.

What will guide us into all truth is the Holy Spirit and that is a promise.

Then where does the problem arise from? There is another spirit that works against God. It comes from men claiming to be of God but who truly is?

It is just like, is this Pastor speaking truly ordained of God or just by men speaking what men have taught him.

Each of us who really want to know must have His Spirit in us that we might rightly, - - 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

If we are His then we are His witnesses that His is God and we witness for the truth as it is in His Word against all the false that Satan would bring in.

Like Paul says "I have fought the good fight" at the close of his time.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gail]

Maybe someone has said this already, so I apologize if I'm repeating what someone has already said, but a big problem with various interpretations is that often the interpreter looks for the nuance of meaning that supports his or her already in-place position. That's one of the main reasons for so many Bible translations and so many denominations. If we all searched the Scriptures with the eye of a learner, with sincere prayers for guidance, instead of looking for texts to bolster our own opinions or align with our own comfort level, we would all be, if not on the same page, at least in the same chapter of the book.

We are all in different rates of progress as to our understanding, so we need to allow that in our discussions with those who appear to have differing opinions. That's something like the Romans 14:1 quote at the top of this page.

LD

I like this too, but also love those moments when a light comes on- BLINK!! and something revolutionary happens within a train of thought.

If a person would study with the idea that s/he might run into one of those moments, it might also open a mind or two.

[JoeMo]

LD and Gail,

<<LIKE>>

(I can't figure out how to post the little emoticons! )

[Ron Amnsn]

I agree wholeheartedly with CoAspen - interpretation makes all the difference in the world. If the Word so readily interpreted itself, we would not have over 40,000 Christian denominations, including close to a dozen "flavors of Adventism.

The Word of God does interpret itself on everything that is important. One of the main reasons we have so many different denominations and interpretations is because most people have decided that various parts of God's Word are no longer valid. That leaves them free to interpret one part of Scripture so that it disagrees with whatever part of Scripture they feel is obsolete. That's the ticket to self-deception.

Whenever you hear someone teach that some part of Scripture is no longer applicable, it should set off major warning alarms in your mind and heart. Such talk is contrary to both the New Testament and the Old Testament.

The apostle Paul was speaking of the Old Testament when he wrote that "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2Tim 3:16-17)

Christians who are largely ignorant of the Old Testament are going to misinterpret the New Testament, especially if they believe that parts of the Old Testament are obsolete.

[JoeMo]

Very appropriate and thoughtful post, Ron! The whole Bible is God's Word; and God does not change.

I ask the following question honestly and with genuine cusiosity - no disagreement or dissention intended:

What does it mean in Hebrews 8:12-13 where it says:

"For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."

[Gibs]

Amen, Ron Amnsn.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Jesus is minister of the new covenant but when did it start?

"The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them;" but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5; Deuteronomy 27:26. The "new covenant" was established upon "better promises"--the promise of forgiveness of sins, and of the grace of God to renew the heart, and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law. {FLB 78.4}

The only means of salvation is provided under the Abrahamic covenant. {FLB 78.5}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gail]

I think there was a new covenant understanding even under the old one, for didn't David pray for God to, "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me"? He was realising his inability to do it, obey with his sinful heart.

[Gibs]

Yes Gail and also from the faith side it seems this is where righteousness by faith began,

" The so-called faith that does not work by love and purify the soul will not justify any man. "Ye see," says the apostle, "how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:24. Abraham believed God. How do we know that he believed? His works testified to the character of his faith, and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness. We need the faith of Abraham in our day, to lighten the darkness that gathers around us, shutting out the sweet sunlight of God's love, and dwarfing spiritual growth. Our faith should be prolific of good works; for faith without works is dead." {FLB 115.7}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ron Amnsn]

What does it mean in Hebrews 8:12-13 where it says:

"For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."

Verse 12 is quoted from the promise of the new (or renewed) covenant given in Jeremiah 31. From the context we know that the "their" is referring to the House of Israel and the House of Judah, evidently after they are reunited into one kingdom (as spoken of by Jeremiah, Hosea, Ezekiel and other prophets).

The promise specifically says that God will forgive their wickedness and forget their sins, which is an Old Testament theme. It doesn't say anything about changing the definition of sin, nor about abolishing laws so that what was previously considered sinful would no longer be considered sinful. God is offering forgiveness, not granting indulgences.

Verse 13 doesn't actually contain the word "covenant". The NASB and KJV versions show that the word was added by the translators by putting the word in italics. The verse may be talking about a new covenant, or it may be talking about the new priesthood of Jesus, which is the topic of the chapter. If it's talking about the priesthood, then what is stated about the first priesthood would be very accurate as the Levitical priesthood stopped functioning (temporarily) soon after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

If the verse is contrasting the new covenant against the old covenant, then we have very strong evidence that the old covenant did not end at the cross. The book of Hebrews was written several decades after the cross, yet the author states that the old was "ready to disappear" but had not yet disappeared at that time.

The Greek word translated as "obsolete" literally means "be made old". The author of Hebrews used that same word in chapter 1 to speak of the foundations of the earth which are still vital to our existence today. The New Testament authors expected heaven and earth to pass away imminently and then to be restored. So verse 13 agrees with what Jesus taught about no stroke of the law passing away until heaven and earth pass away (Matt 5.18) Of course, it should be no surprise that the book of Hebrews agrees with the teachings of Jesus and with the Old Testament.

The verse previous to the ones you quoted makes it clear that the New Covenant is not yet implemented: "And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest." (Heb 8:11) We still have neighbors and brothers that don't know the Lord, so we know we aren't yet living under the new covenant. We do see the first-fruits of the new covenant in the lives of those who have God's law written on their hearts, but the real fulfillment is still future.

Ezekiel tells us that careful obedience to God's statutes and ordinances is the result of being given the Spirit and a heart of flesh. And that we can expect that to happen when God regathers Israel. (Ezekiel 11:17-20 and 36:24-27)

[JoeMo]

I REALLY appreciate the thoughtful, inspired explanation, Ron! I am totally blessed by that! I plan on incorporating that into a lesson I will be teaching on Hebrews 8 next month! Naturally, I will be a noble Berean and check it out further; but that is the most balanced explanation of those verses I have ever heard!

Be blessed!

JoeMo

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

A really easy answer......Interpretation!!!!!

Correct. The key is to believe what is read without trying to justify one's self to make it say what we want it to say. Few are willing to do that. But then one has to believe that for harmony to be possible.

"[Yet] first [you must] understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is [a matter] of any personal or private or special interpretation (loosening, solving)."

2 Peter 1:20 AMP parenthesis, brackets their's LHC

God blesses!