Destroying those who destroy the earth?

[BobRyan]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/oct/15/pacific-iron-fertilisation-geoengineering

A controversial American businessman dumped around 100 tonnes of iron sulphate into the Pacific Ocean as part of a geoengineering scheme off the west coast of Canada in July, a Guardian investigation can reveal.

Lawyers, environmentalists and civil society groups are calling it a "blatant violation" of two international moratoria and the news is likely to spark outrage at a United Nations environmental summit taking place in India this week.

...

Scientists are debating whether iron fertilisation can lock carbon into the deep ocean over the long term, and have raised concerns that it can irreparably harm ocean ecosystems, produce toxic tides and lifeless waters, and worsen ocean acidification and global warming.

"It is difficult if not impossible to detect and describe important effects that we know might occur months or years later," said John Cullen , an oceanographer at Dalhousie University. "Some possible effects, such as deep-water oxygen depletion and alteration of distant food webs, should rule out ocean manipulation. History is full of examples of ecological manipulations that backfired."

==================

Brings a whole new emphasis to the Rev 11 statement about God "destroying those who destroy the earth".

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

We have all been guilty of polluting the earth one way or another. Our oceans have become garbage dumps. They have become totally polluted with the non-biodegradable plastic particles called nerdles (sp).

Recycle everything that is recyclable. Don't just dump them in the trash.

[olger]

Good question, Bob. Here is a short study I did on Revelation 11:18 last winter. Let me know what you think.

"What does it mean to “destroy the earth?” Today it is popular to hear Revelation 11:18 quoted as a warning call to get on the modern environmentalist band-wagon. “And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints…… And should destroy those who destroy the earth.” The question is, destroy the earth with what?

I believe there is a there is a strong contextual link between Revelation 11:18 and Genesis 6:5-7. It is the human heart that "destroys “the earth by filling it with iniquity and violence” as in the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37.)

1 Peter 3:13 tells us that the earth will be destroyed because of unrighteousness. This agrees with revelation 11:18 where it is talking about God destroying THEM who destroy the earth.

The idea that Revelation 11:18 is referring to those that are not environmentalists overlooks the overriding biblical theme that unrighteousness is what destroys the earth. What is unrighteousness? Lying, pride, adultery, violence, homosexuality, rebellion, hatred etc. Few would argue the fact that iniquity is on the rise (2 Timothy 3:1, 13). For instance, the modern rise of homosexuality is just another indicator that the earth's cup of iniquity is filling up rapidly.

The current emphasis on environmental “sin” is a smoke screen for the real causes and description of iniquity. It redefines sin in a way that God has not done.

Modern environmentalists insist that Revelation 11:18 is referring to M&M wrappers in the ditch, Cooper tires buried in landfills and the carnal use of plastic WalMart bags while driving cars.

This shallow view of judgment is a politically-driven distraction to the real meaning of the verse. The parallel passage of Revelation 11:18 is in Genesis 6:5-7, where God says that He is going to destroy the earth (people) because it was filled with violence and wickedness. The word (diaphtheiro:G1311) in Revelation 11 carries the meaning of “corrupt” as its primary definition. God will “corrupt” those who “corrupt” the earth.

1 Timothy 6:5 uses the word diaphtheiro to describe men of corrupt minds who pervert the earth. The context is referring to the moral influence of these men. Jesus Himself uses the word in Luke 12 to describe what moths do to earthly treasure. They corrupt it.

Colossians 3 further reveals disobedience as that which defiles the earth. “When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience...” (Col. 3:4).

Let’s go back to our parallel passage in Genesis. "And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth" (Genesis 6:12-13).

Jesus said that "As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man (Matthew 24). The two events are contextually bound together, and the byproduct of men in both events is wickedness that fills (and corrupts) the earth.

Conclusion. To claim that using Wal-Mart bags and/or burning a wood stove causes God to place you on a divine death-row is new level of missing-the-point. It is the human heart that destroys the earth by filling it with iniquity and violence "as in the days of Noah." On that score, God is very clear. Such people will be destroyed because of their premiere byproduct. Iniquity."

rejoice always,

g

[Tom Wetmore]

Sounds like striving to justify ones worldly point of view...

[Anderoo]

"This shallow view of judgment is a politically-driven distraction to the real meaning of the verse. The parallel passage of Revelation 11:18 is in Genesis 6:5-7, where God says that He is going to destroy the earth (people) because it was filled with violence and wickedness. The word (diaphtheiro:G1311) in Revelation 11 carries the meaning of “corrupt” as its primary definition. God will “corrupt” those who “corrupt” the earth.

1 Timothy 6:5 uses the word diaphtheiro to describe men of corrupt minds who pervert the earth. The context is referring to the moral influence of these men. Jesus Himself uses the word in Luke 12 to describe what moths do to earthly treasure. They corrupt it."

I have not attended church in 10 years. I am considering going to a Revelation Seminar tonight that I was invited to.

I have recently been thinking of this topic and did not realize that citing Revelation 11:18 has become a popular proof text to support environmentalist political views. I understand this text to be inclusive of all human behavior that contributes to the destruction of the earth. I believe that the global capitalist system is "violent" and "wicked" and "corrupt" and that the corporate ruling class exploit and oppress many of the very same people that SDA missionaries are trying to reach with the gospel. People in the United States and Europe are the primary beneficiaries of this economic system and have convinced themselves that the "invisible hand" is simply the natural order of things. Capitalism is a relatively new economic approach on this planet and globalizing it has extended its negative affect throughout the world. There are some benefits to this system but they largely accrue to a small percentage of people at the top of this economic system. The middle class is shrinking and as resources and the environment become depleted, the share of the pie going toward the middle and lower classes will continue to shrink while the share going to the top percent will continue to increase. Those at the top are the "men of corrupt minds who pervert the earth."

Now before Olger's knee-jerk dismissiveness kicks in, let's try to connect some other dots. Revelation 14 contains the three angels' message. The first angel urges us to "worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.'" EGW calls nature God's "second book." Christians who care for the environment do not worship nature but rather believe in caring for what has been entrusted to us as stewards - quite the opposite of what the profit-driven, global corporate capitalists are doing. The second angel says, 'Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.' Babylon was a spiritual and ECONOMIC power. Look at who really controls the world - it is essentially global finance and multinational corporations. The third angel tells us not to worship the beast or his image. To me, coming out of Babylon means coming out of a system that has spiritual and economic features. Within the context of SDA eschatology, in order for a "mark" to be enforced on a global scale, apostate Christianity and hyper-capitalism would converge to enforce this mark. The most ardent defenders of this earth-destroying/human exploiting global capitalist system are a big part of the religious right. I'm disappointed at how many Adventists lack the discernment to make these connections. I'm a backslider and even I can see that writing on the wall.

I've made some other observations. It appears to me that at least two of the plagues may be caused by human economic activity. The sun scorching the earth strikes me as being connected to anthropogenic climate change. The seas turning to blood is eerily similar to a scientific report published recently predicting that all ocean life will be dead by 2050. It seems like in the plagues there is an element of natural consequences to human greed and selfishness. The religious right wingers tell us that God will punish America for allowing abortion and gays. They overlook the affects of human greed on the earth and upon exploited people in third world countries who are cheated out of natural resources and they pay the price for the relatively lavish lifestyles of those of us in the U.S. and Europe. Sadly, a lot of SDA subscribe to the same mindset as their right wing brothers and sisters in the "apostate churches."

I hardly ever get on here so if anyone wants to communicate with me about my views you can communicate with me directly: andrew.sias@gmail.com

[epaminondas]

Iron sulphate is not especially a toxic salt. That's why they speculate about what it may do. Iron is an essential part of hemoglobin. We have about 15mg of iron in our western daily diets of which the male absorbs about 1.5mg and the fertile female about 2.5mg - they lose iron monthly through menstruation. It is not certain that this iron sulphate may not have some beneficial effects. Now lets look at something that is definitely damaging to earth - the western lifestyle with the USA leading the way.

Every one of you driving a big, fuel hungry vehicle is a rapist of the environment. Case closed. Of course, every such driver has a good reason for doing so and is fully justified doing so. Just ask them.

Now that is something about which each of us can do something. We can responsibly choose what we drive. I drive a 1.4L car which has given me on average 7.1L/100Km over the 25,000Km I've had it. I have a spread sheet of every drop of fuel I've put into it since brand new. On a recent long trip it gave me 5.7L/100Km. It easily maintains the speed limits (110Km/h at most), has enough space, is air-conditioned, has four electric windows and what not. Why drive a big, thirsty 4WD?

Kris Kristofferson was right: "the things that they complain about are things they could be changing, but no-one seems to care."

[Gerr]

Too much iron IS toxic!

[epaminondas]

Too much iron IS toxic!

The same can be said about many elements which are needed in small quantities, even some foodstuffs - too much milk causes milk alkali syndrome. In humans, too much iron causes hemosiderosis. Africans who brewed their beer in their three legged iron pots, got it. They didn't get it from eating their maize porridge which was also cooked in the same pots. For some reason the beer contained much iron. I knew why at one stage.

Logically, "too much" of anything is bad, otherwise it wouldn't be "too" much. So, saying "too much" of anything is bad is stating the obvious.

[olger]

Sounds like striving to justify ones worldly point of view...

I believe your sounder is malfunctioning.

[olger]

Every one of you driving a big, fuel hungry vehicle is a rapist of the environment. Case closed.

I see..

What manner of fuel does your angelic car use? And is it delivered to your local filling station in grass-thatched carts with wind sails?

And I trust that you are not buying any food at the local grocery. Rumor has it that food supplies in Australia are not delivered by cherubic children pulling green wagons, but rather by diesel trucks averaging 5.1 miles-per-gallon. Just as well, child labor laws could keep you awake at night.

I have four F-350 diesel trucks that we use in business. They are much appreciated. I would be glad to send you my address if you would like to press "rape" charges for owning & driving them. Then when your roof leaks, you can build a ladder out of dried sweet potatoes and fix it yourself. A mixture of molasses and lettuce leaf should stop the leak for a couple seconds, so be prepared to climb the "ladder" often.

If the ladder breaks while climbing it, you could, in a demonstration of environmental grandeur refuse to be transported to the hospital in the diesel ambulance. The leg will heal eventually, and the permanent limp will serve as an ever-present badge of green honor, and conversation starter at potlucks. The leaky roof will eventually cause the structure to collapse, and that is good for the environment, as mice, rats and wallabees can all find asylum in the pile of decaying former house.

Since building a new house would require lumber that has been sawn and transported by "rapists" you could build it out of leaves and mud. It will take a while (partially because of the skill required, and the nagging limp). Speaking of nagging, if you find just one natural bug in the mud you are using as a building material, the construction MUST STOP immediately, and the entire area designated as an environmental offense for displacing creatures from their homes. But that's ok - you can build somewhere else - until you disturb more creatures that is.

But such is the price of "saving the planet" and maintaining your non-rapist status. The important thing is, you are preserving the planet for....for...something.

The Lord will return soon, unannounced, and say "Bring Me your talents and what you have done with them." Then He will judge the world in righteousness, and destroy it so it can be made new. It will be revealed then whether we have worshipped the Creator or worshipped created things (Roman 1) and woe unto them who guess wrong. Only Jesus, friend of sinners (and rapists) can stand in your place on That Day, And what will matter most is not how much "earth" I saved, but how I loved the Lord and not the things of the "world which are passing away."

Rejoice always,

[Gerr]

Let's not go from one extreme to another. By all means use oil, wood, food, etc. but in a responsible way that least harms our environment. SoCal would hardly be habitable now without the air pollution laws. Some of the rivers in N. Carolina are now unsafe for man or aquatic life because of pollution from large commercial pig farms.

[olger]

I'm not a big fan of pigs.

I do appreciate diesel trucks though.

[Gerr]

My diesel car is the least pollutant of all vehicles made save electric ones.

[Naomi]

Love my diesel pickup truck

[Guest]

Pigs bad, Diesel good. :)

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: epaminondas

Every one of you driving a big, fuel hungry vehicle is a rapist of the environment. Case closed.

I see..

What manner of fuel does your angelic car use? And is it delivered to your local filling station in grass-thatched carts with wind sails?

And I trust that you are not buying any food at the local grocery. Rumor has it that food supplies in Australia are not delivered by cherubic children pulling green wagons, but rather by diesel trucks averaging 5.1 miles-per-gallon. Just as well, child labor laws could keep you awake at night.

I have four F-350 diesel trucks that we use in business. They are much appreciated. I would be glad to send you my address if you would like to press "rape" charges for owning & driving them. Then when your roof leaks, you can build a ladder out of dried sweet potatoes and fix it yourself. A mixture of molasses and lettuce leaf should stop the leak for a couple seconds, so be prepared to climb the "ladder" often.

If the ladder breaks while climbing it, you could, in a demonstration of environmental grandeur refuse to be transported to the hospital in the diesel ambulance. The leg will heal eventually, and the permanent limp will serve as an ever-present badge of green honor, and conversation starter at potlucks. The leaky roof will eventually cause the structure to collapse, and that is good for the environment, as mice, rats and wallabees can all find asylum in the pile of decaying former house.

Since building a new house would require lumber that has been sawn and transported by "rapists" you could build it out of leaves and mud. It will take a while (partially because of the skill required, and the nagging limp). Speaking of nagging, if you find just one natural bug in the mud you are using as a building material, the construction MUST STOP immediately, and the entire area designated as an environmental offense for displacing creatures from their homes. But that's ok - you can build somewhere else - until you disturb more creatures that is.

But such is the price of "saving the planet" and maintaining your non-rapist status. The important thing is, you are preserving the planet for....for...something.

The Lord will return soon, unannounced, and say "Bring Me your talents and what you have done with them." Then He will judge the world in righteousness, and destroy it so it can be made new. It will be revealed then whether we have worshipped the Creator or worshipped created things (Roman 1) and woe unto them who guess wrong. Only Jesus, friend of sinners (and rapists) can stand in your place on That Day, And what will matter most is not how much "earth" I saved, but how I loved the Lord and not the things of the "world which are passing away."

Rejoice always,

I love it when common sense triumphs over propaganda, and programmed (false) beliefs. Even if it's in a small way. And I couldn't agree more, with what you said.

[Gerr]

Naomi, YOU drive a truck?

[Gail]

Naomi, YOU drive a truck?

Isn't she handy? :)

[olger]

Pigs bad, Diesel good.

Richard right.

Pigs...uhh...still bad.

[olger]

Love my diesel pickup truck

I

A M

I M P R E S S E D.

[olger]

My diesel car is the least pollutant of all vehicles made save electric ones.

Yeah, I got me a couple diesel Jettas, Gerry.

GREAT cars.

g

[phkrause]

I hear you guys, but at the same time I see all the diesel trucks drive by and just polluting the air!

[olger]

Diesel is an organic product. When it rains, the rain flushes out the air. The earth is a lot more resilient than we think.

[olger]

"Phasing out the human race will solve every problem on earth, social and environmental." — Dave Forman, Founder of Earth First!

Should we start with Dave ??

[Guest]

"Phasing out the human race will solve every problem on earth, social and environmental." — Dave Forman, Founder of Earth First!

Should we start with Dave ??

Yes we should start with Dave. And the earth IS more resilient than we think. And it's waay more resilient than Dave thinks. :)