Robert Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 Let's see what turned the lives of the Disciples up side down. Was it fear & wrath, or was it God's agape love? Read: Forsaken of God Quote
12tribes Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 Romans 2:4 (4) Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Quote Galatians 3:29(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gibs Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 It is sin that experiences His Wrath. He loves one greatly when He puts it away. It was when David fully repented and put away His sin that God said he was a man after His own Heart. The old man died and a new man arose in Him. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Gibs Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 Faith only works by love. Faith alone is dead. What is dead faith? Presumption! Faith and Love together are what a Christian must have. It looks to me like Love begets faith, trust and desire to please and do the the will especially of the one we must come to love preeminently. We then, when we have it incorporated in us fully do no wrong toward Him or any fellow man or creature Love does no wrong, Our God and Saviour are LOVE and require no wrong of any of the hosts He created. He will and never can do a wrong to any. Love is the greatest of the gifts a man can have. We can grow in love, appreciate His Blessings and His gift of salvation we don't deserve. "As we receive of Him, we have something with which to help others. Thus receiving and imparting, we grow in love toward God, increasing in faith and peace, and assurance, and holiness, which is wholeness, toward Him. We give to Him all that there is of us, that the blessings which He has brought within our reach may be communicated to others as freely as they have been communicated to us from the Lord Jesus our Restorer. To every one who believes, He is as the Tree of Life in the Paradise of God. His branches reach to the lower world, in order that the blessings He has purchased for us may be brought within our reach. From this tree we may pluck and eat, and then guide others to it, that they also may eat. {BTS, August 1, 1905 par. 2} Sister White, truly a teacher moved and taught and inspired of our God and Saviour. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Moderators Gerr Posted October 30, 2012 Moderators Posted October 30, 2012 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom," Prov 1:7. Quote
Administrators Naomi Posted October 30, 2012 Administrators Posted October 30, 2012 Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God
Robert Posted October 31, 2012 Author Posted October 31, 2012 Romans 2:4(4) Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Bingo! Quote
Robert Posted October 31, 2012 Author Posted October 31, 2012 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom," Prov 1:7. I've heard the proper translation is "respect". Quote
Gibs Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 "Fear" used there in the KJV does mean "reverence". for He is so Great! yir'ah yir-aw' feminine of 3373; fear (also used as infinitive); morally, reverence:--X dreadful, X exceedingly, fear(-fulness). 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
JoeMo Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 How many of you have (or had)wrathful fathers in the home that you feared when you were a kid - a father who beat you and constanly reminded you of how useless and unworthy of His love that you were? Did you love him, and respect him, and look for ways to please him? Do you look back at him with warm fuzzies now; thinking "Ahhh, those were the good old days!" I ask the same questions to you that have (or had) loving supportive father - one that encouraged you to do right, and followed through with appropriate consequences in you didn't; yet always made you feel unconditionally loved ... Which heavenly Father do you envision - one who punishes your sin by giving you cancer, or taking one of your children, or making you a quadriplegic? To me, that's child abuse. Or maybe a Father who is willing to throw His child into the lake of fire? Or do you envision one who loves you unconditionally? He may allow you to suffer the civil or natural consequences of your habitual sin; but He is always there to support you spiritually and emotionally; and is looking for any way He can to take you to Himself forever? Which one would you rather have? Which one motivates you to a life that will bring you eternal bliss? Quote
Robert Posted October 31, 2012 Author Posted October 31, 2012 Many like a God of wrath because they view themselves as God's buddies. They are obeying, but everyone else isn't. Therefore they have that same spirit as the disciples did when they went with Christ into a Samaritan village: Luke 9:54 And when His disciples James and John saw this (the Samaritans wouldn't welcome Christ), they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?" 55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of." Quote
JoeMo Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 As much as I don't like to say it, I agree that the self-righteousness and judgemental attitude of the "frozen chosen" is part of the problem. Another Biblical example is the Pharisee thanking God that he is not as wretched an the disgusting publican. One of the reasons I don't like saying it is because some will accuse me that I am claiming superiority to them because I am saved "in my sin" rather than "from my sin". Thats not the case - I know I'm a sinner, and I need a loving and forgiving Father to be saved. BTW, weren't the "3 worthies" in the book of Daniel saved "in the fire" rather than "from the fire"? Quote
Gibs Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 JoeMo, I don't see any posting here indicating self righteousness. If that is what you are refering to of those of us who seen and know we must be overcomers you are dead wrong. Most of us and maybe all and I do believe all who advocate overcoming seeing ourselves as Paul stated, "oh wretched man that I am". No it is not that we are not converted or saved, it is because our sin is ever before us as long as we live in this life. Deeply grieved for the terrible things we did. Paul wasn't alone, look at what David did. Ps 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. David I'm sure saw himself also as "oh wretcted man that I am" Now notice this, Ac 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 2Sa 24:10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly. It must be the same with us! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Moderators Gerr Posted October 31, 2012 Moderators Posted October 31, 2012 3374 יִרְאָה [yirʾah /yir·aw/] n f. From 3373; TWOT 907b; GK 3711; 45 occurrences; AV translates as “fear” 41 times, “exceedingly + 1419” twice, “dreadful” once, and “fearfulness” once. 1 fear, terror, fearing. 1A fear, terror. 1B awesome or terrifying thing (object causing fear). 1C fear (of God), respect, reverence, piety. 1D revered. 3375 יִרְאֹון [Yiro Strong, J. (2001). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software. If 'fear' meant reverence or respect, then when the OT & NT say - "Do not fear," it means then that we are NOT to revere or respect God? Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted October 31, 2012 Moderators Posted October 31, 2012 I had a terrible father. I still bear in my body the mark of physical abuse. Was I fearful? You bet! Did it make me listen to him? You better believe it! Did it make me love him? Not! Quote
Gibs Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. Fear there of that verse is, phobos fob'-os from a primary phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright:--be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Robert Posted October 31, 2012 Author Posted October 31, 2012 I had a terrible father. I still bear in my body the mark of physical abuse. Was I fearful? You bet! Did it make me listen to him? You better believe it! Did it make me love him? Not! Bingo....In other words it was a relationship of fear. You, as a child, tried to not make him angry out of pure fear. God is nothing like our sinful, earthly Fathers. But of course you know that. I had a abusive step father. Whipped me with the belt buckle until I was bruised and bleeding from head to foot. And he also gave me beer to drink in my bottle in my infant years. Here's the thing...if you met his parents he had a step-father just as mean. So it goes from family to family. IF God was like my step-father, well, I would be an atheist. Quote
Gibs Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 I loved my Daddy, he was a strict disciplinarian and out of love for me. He never hurt me, only a wake up tan once in awhile which I sorely needed. He wasn't an Eli and I'm sure glad of that! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
JoeMo Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 My heart goes out to you, Gerry. You are obviously a strong person. Your earthly father obviously didn't break you; and your heavenly Father upheld you. Your a doctor and one of the saints! May God bless you and uphold you. Quote
JoeMo Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 In Matt. 4:10 Jesus quotes Deut. 6:13 by saying "WORSHIP the Lord your God, and serve him only." Yet, when you look directly at Deut. 6:13, it says "FEAR the Lord your God, serve him only". Could OT "fear" be equivalent to NT "worship"? What do you think? Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted November 1, 2012 Moderators Posted November 1, 2012 But, Rob, your OP title - "What works - wrath or love?" - they both accomplish a purpose: a 2x4 or a belt to get your attention, or love for a lasting relationship. The Bible uses the strongest possible language to express God's displeasure over sin so that sinners would pay attention. But fear can only take a person so far. A lot of people use fear because it gets quick attention and result, but it is love that gives the best and lasting results. How interesting that your step-father used a belt buckle. My father was trying to teach me arithmetic even BEFORE I started first grade. Every time I got a wrong answer, I got the belt! One day my forearm caught the belt buckle and left a bruise that I carry to this day, although it did fade some over time. Quote
CoAspen Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 Quote: But fear can only take a person so far. A lot of people use fear because it gets quick attention and result, but it is love that gives the best and lasting results. Double Amen!! Quote
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