Leeches & Maggots

[Guest]

I wonder if any of the "watchmen on the wall of Zion" will be heard from among God's professed theologians when these Leeches & Maggots start being administered in Adventist hospitals? In the summer of 2004 the FDA approved for this treatment to be used in all US hospitals. But something as simple a herbal comfory leaf teas & poloces to knit the bones back together and hydrotherapy [that medical personal would use on their own family members at home] is strictly forbidden. Don’t dare talk about any vitamins & minerals to treat the sick either!!! No there will be no out cry from SDA theologian because they are hedged up, when heaven has told them every so plainly to “Ye break every yoke that binds you”.

[bevin]

Ed,

to be a valid medical treatment something must have

(a) a theory for why it works

( testing showing that it does work better than alternatives

© practical - teachable, usable, affordable

Leeches and maggots have all three.

Herbal comfry leaves are NOT simple. They are a complex mixture of biologically active and inactive agents with poor control over purity and dosage.

Vitamins and minerals are used every day.

/Bevin

[wicklunds]

Vitamins and minerals are seriously lacking in the Western diet, and therefore are not used every day. Leeches and maggots also carry micro-parasites that could be more harmful than good to a patient. Do herbal remedies have these? Did God give these creatures as cure-alls for human ailments? What we are talking about here is the difference between whether the thing has been accepted by the party line of medical opinion derived from a half-sober discussion at the company Christmas party. Theres my theory, I don't need to test what I already know God gave for healing (plants) and I know that plants are practical, teachable, usable, affordable. It's just that my doctor would just assume prescribe his own $150.00 a bottle of pills so as to keep the pharmeceutical companies fat and happy, and me trying to figure out why my head is so cloudy and my stomach full of acid.

[Morning Glory]

Well, Ed, I have no idea what you are talking about. Poultices just do not knit bones, sorry. Using herbs is NOT forbidden in hospitals. Hospitals serve a variety of herbal teas, for instance. MD's have no problem with that from what I am aware of. ( I can't remember herbs being rx'd in a hospital, tho. As I am not a physician, please don't lamblast ME about that.)

This is what I know about herbs: Most companies who produce different herbal products are not governed by the same QA, therefore, the strengths and purities of the herbs cannot be counted on to be accurate in all cases. There have not been enough studies, double blind studies, etc to actually prove or disprove the claims of a lot of these products. That is NOT to say that they aren't effective for a lot of minor problems, however, they have NOT been proven to be effective for serious diseases.

I have worked in hospitals for 30+ years, now, so I do know of what I write. I have seen leaches used, and they can be quite effective in ridding a nasty wound of infection/necrotic tissue. However, orders to do so are at the descretion of a physician. The FDA has given that type of treatment their stamp of approval AFTER the appropriate studies have been done. Now, that IS a step forward....using a "natural" means to cure rather than drugs. There is a whole protocal in regard to using these critters, and it is NOT willy-nilly.

Hospitals are required to follow certain proceedures and ways of doing things per National standards. If one doesn't like that, or agree with that, then alternative medicine would be their choice. But, buyer beware: many things that alternative medicine does has NOT been tested and proven to be effective ways of treating diseases or injuries.

Yes, I know, there are many antedotal stories and first person stories to back up some of these alternative treatments, however, in using scientific process, they fall short of being completely effective. There again, it is one's choice how they wish to be treated.

As to your claim of vitamins and minerals being anathama in hospital use, again, you are wrong. I see those items FREQUENTLY being ordered for patients. Medicine has come a LONG way in recent times in recognizing the value of these things to aid in treating diseases and other problems.

Physical therapy uses hydrotherapy in MANY cases. True, it is not used as frequently as in times past, and that can be lamented. When my mom was a student nurse in the 40's it was used for MANY ailments. In those days, nurses didn't have the same kind of responsibility that they do today and there was time for them to devote to those kinds of activities. In the 21st century, however, that is within the realm of Physical Therapy. Many duties that nurses used to have have been given over to other departments. And that is a GOOD thing!!!

Let me name a few departments that have been created and now do things that used to be the responsibility of nurses:

Housekeeping, Respiratory Therapy, Physical Therapy, Occupational Therapy to name a few off the top of my head. This a way good thing, as these are fields that require a special study and focus so that nurses can do what nurses do best: Care for the patient.

I really don't understand why you think that SDA theologians need to get into this subject as it has NOTHING to do with their expertise. Physicians and Hospitals, or the medical community in general don't tell Ministers how to do their job, why on earth should Ministers tell Physician's how to do theirs??? That makes absolutely no sense, and it would be extemely scarry if that were the case. Kind of like your local mechanic advising YOUR surgon on how to perform YOUR heart surgery.

Just stop and think about that for a minute, REALLY think about it. What are you asking for? Is that really how you would like your health care to be done? Sounds like going back into the dark ages when the "church" was the final authority on everything, whether they knew anything about it or not.

[Guest]

Morning I am afraid your "glory" has dimmed some what with you trying to prop up the bogus medical profession. Yes, thousands of innocient people are just caught up in the system and this is all they know at present, but everyone will soon see where & who did the hy-jacking of the blessed Medical Missionary work away from SDA. And BTW "the gospel minister & medical missionary work should NEVER be divorced". SOP

"I was shown a platform, braced by solid timbers, the truths of the word of God. Some one high in responsibility in the medical work was directing this man and that man to loosen the timbers supporting this platform. Then I heard a voice saying, "Where are the watchmen that ought to be standing on the walls of Zion? Are they asleep? How can they be silent? This foundation was built by the Master Worker, and will stand the storm and tempest. Will they permit this man to present doctrines that deny the past experience of the people of God? The time has come to take decided action" {SpTB07 38.1}

I was instructed to call upon our physicians and ministers to take a firm stand for the truth"

[bevin]

Quote:

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I have seen [:"red"]leaches[/] used, and they can be quite effective in ridding a nasty wound of infection/necrotic tissue.

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Typo: maggots.

Specially raised disease-free maggots are used for this purpose. Pathogens don't just happen (except rarely by mutation). Flies carry pathogens because of where they have been. The maggots prefer to eat the necrosed tissue rather than the healthy tissue in a wound, and so do a very effective and precise debridement.

Similarly the leaches used for moving blood through tissue where the blood has difficulty getting out again.

Understanding how these work requires an ability to get past the knee-jerk grossed-out reaction we all have based on our childhood 'keep clean' training and learning to put credence on careful thought and experiment. This can be quite a challenge for many people - not just Ed.

/Bevin

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: " . . .hydrotherapy . . . is strictly forbidden."

Sorry Ed. You do not know what you are talking about. In 1992 I recieved hydrotherapy in a government hospital. Also, I personally know of two hospitals, one government and the other private, who do hydrotherapy, at the present time. You are simply wrong.

Re: "Don’t dare talk about any vitamins & minerals to treat the sick either!!!"

I guess that you are correct on this one. There is no need to talk about it. At the Federal hosptial where I work, vitamins are prescribed, by physicians, for patients. Many patients, in some catagories, get them. This is so accepted that there is no need to talk about it. By the way, we give soy milk to patients who request it. A number of them do request it.

[Pockey]

Bevin's right. Maggot therapy has actually been shown to be very effective for wound debridement and promoting wound care. People freak out because of the word "maggot".

[Morning Glory]

Thanks, Bevin. It has been a number of years since I was involved in this case. All of the nurses caring for the patient in question were pretty freaked out about it, however, it helped heal the wound.

[Morning Glory]

Gregory, Don't you mean that Ed is NOT right about vitamins and minerals NOT being used as standard practice in hospitals?

[Morning Glory]

Ed, I expected as much from you. It is impossible for you or anyone to prove or disprove modern medical practice from the writings of EGW, esp since medical practice as we now know it was basically not in existence at that time. While I greatly admire her and respect that Jesus spoke to her in Visions, I do take into consideration that the majority of this counsel was given approximately 100 years ago, and one has to temper that with todays world. I am certain that you would not agree with me, and that is your perogative. Let us just agree to disagree.

[Gregory Matthews]

MG:

Ed's statement that people did not talk about vitamins was correct. There is no need to discuss them because, contrary to what Ed implied, vitimins are so widely used in hospitals.

Just a convoluted way of saying something which sometimes gets me into trouble.

[Guest]

Quote:

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MG:

Ed's statement that people did not talk about vitamins was correct. There is no need to discuss them because, contrary to what Ed implied, vitimins are so widely used in hospitals.

Just a convoluted way of saying something which sometimes gets me into trouble.

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Greg you know as well as the rest of us that the MDs [the ones trained wrong] are seeking legislation to close down all health food store and will never be satisified until every man/woman/child/dog/cat needs to come to THEM to take the sorcerers pills.

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You know folks I searched the book page 127 in Ministry Of Healing where the eight [AND only eight] true remedies are listed to see if maggots /leeches/drug/medication was listed there. Was the English speaking prophet to the SDA church mistaken to not include these items [that people on this forum are praising] in this list?

"Pure air, sunlight, abstemiousness, rest, exercise, proper diet, the use of water, trust in divine power--these are the true remedies. Every person should have a knowledge of nature's remedial agencies and how to apply them. It is essential both to understand the principles involved in the treatment of the sick and to have a practical training that will enable one rightly to use this knowledge. {MH 127.2}

What has always amazed me is that down in the Tiny Tots division they know exactly how many is “one”. Like in gemma “one” cookie mommie. But up in the senior division after decades of “higher education under their belts, “one” means whatever suits your fancy!! Yes everyone gets to choose in this life, but I want to be found on the side approving what heaven approves. Now remember it is “only one way”.

“There are many ways of practicing the healing art, but there is only one way that Heaven approves. God's remedies are the simple agencies of nature that will not tax or debilitate the system through their powerful properties. Pure air and water, cleanliness, a proper diet, purity of life, and a firm trust in God are remedies for the want of which thousands are dying; yet these remedies are going out of date because their skillful use requires work that the people do not appreciate. Fresh air, exercise, pure water, and clean, sweet premises are within the reach of all with but little expense, but drugs are expensive, both in the outlay of means and in the effect produced upon the system. {5T 443.1}

[bevin]

Ed, you are simply wrong about what EGW meant by this, because

1) EGW herself practsed treatments outside this list - for instance she had quite a few teeth pulled! My memory is saying six in NZ but I could be way off base

2) She is listing treatments FOR ILLNESS. Not treatment for INJURY. Completely different things.

3) She is listing them at a time when medical use of chemicals was no where near as effective or safe as it is today

Was she wrong? Partially - for not explicitly allowing the use of medications from her own time that had use under specific circumstances - quinine, opium, laudinum, digitalis

Are you wrong? Completely - for failing to correctly understand what she wrote in the context she wrote it

/Bevin