Romans 1 and 2 - and 7, 8, 9

[BobRyan]

Rather than slice and snip up Romans into one text here or one text there. Let's look at some interesting consistency in the book by taking "the larger view".

Romans 1 - Paul contrasts the saints inside the church with the wicked world outside (the world that rejects the Gospel)

Romans 2 - Paul contrasts the saved saints outside of the church with certain members inside the church who are Christians in name only. (Primarily among the Jews but he also addresses all such cases in Romans 2). Thus Paul has fully covered the lost both inside and outside the church as well as the saved both inside and outside the church. A great explanation of the Investigative Judgment where "it is not the hearers that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justiFIED ... on that day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16.

Romans 6 - Paul explains why it is that victory over sin is a must for Christians - for by that which you are overcome - to that you are servant and slave.

Romans 7 - Paul details the dilemma of the lost person who imagines himself to be "ALIVE apart from the Law of God" and then - the state where that person becomes a newborn saved saint confronted with the need for victory over sin - "

9 but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;...

20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. ...

22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner... Oh wretched man that I am"

Romans 8 - in the first half of this chapter - Paul explains that victory over sin comes to those who "by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh".

He contrasts that saved saint condition - with those who set their mind on the flesh by saying that these are the ones that "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they".

Thoughts?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Gerry,

Romans 8:31-39 also gives me great confidence that nothing - not even my sin or my unworthiness - can separate me from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As we all know - God loves even those he burns in the lake of fire. You are skipping around the point. In Romans 8 Paul shows clearly that it is only those who "by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh" that experience the blessing of Rom 8:31-39

Isaiah 59 reminds us "your sins have made a separation between you and God".

Romans 11 reminds us "you should fear for you stand only by your faith - and if HE did not spare them neither will He spare you".

Matt 18 reminds us "so shall my heavenly Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

Gal 5 reminds us "you have fallen from grace, separated from Christ" in the case of those who wanted to accept the "must be a Jew to be saved" theology of "some".

Romans 2 reminds us that eternal life is for those who "persevere in doing good".

Romans 6 reminds us not to be deceived for

"15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

Romans 8 tells us that it is only those who "by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh" that are given the assurance of salvation that cries out "Abba Father" and those who hearts are "set on the flesh do not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they".

I am raising the very "details" in scripture that some have objected to in the past - yet they are the "details" that explain the problem for evangelical OSAS perfectly.

in Christ,

Bob

[phkrause]

Excellent posts Bob.

[BobRyan]

Thanks pkrause.

(Pkrause or phkrause?)

The message in the book of Romans is pretty clear on this topic. Which may be why some people prefer a carefully snipped up limited scope discussion when it comes to Romans.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Not the subject....Romans 8:1 is the subject.

On this thread Romans 8:1 is very much included - but the idea of bending or wrenching just 1 verse while totally ignoring its context in Romans 8 and 6 and 7 (and 1 and 2) is not what this thread is about.

What I am showing here is - a harmony among these chapters even though some people would prefer not to "look at it".

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

the idea of bending or wrenching just 1 verse ....

You have to understand chapter 7 before your understand Romans 8:1-3

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

Why did Paul state this? Because he had in mind the preceding verses of Romans chapter 7. This man is struggling with sin. He's not struggling with going to a bar and having casual sex - he's not engaging in drugs or murder (gross sins)- he is failing to live Christ life that answers the spiritual demands of God's law.

Is there any condemnation for the believers who is falling short of God's agape love? The answer is no!

Why?

2 because in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

[BobRyan]

In Romans 8 Paul makes it clear that he is not endorsing a life of rebellion as if such a life is blessed by God. Rather Paul says in Romans 8 that it is only the lost that "do not submit to the LAW of God - neither indeed CAN they".

However even a life of victory over sin as seen in Romans 8 and 6 (by the now-converted-saint of Romans 7) would be condemned were it not for Grace and the Gospel - which is the point that Paul makes in Romans 8:1-3.

All of this is pretty much - just the basics.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

I think we agree....

[BobRyan]

Indeed - I have been saying that Romans 7 begins with the case of the lost person - and ends with the case of the saved.

in the same way Romans 6 and 8 deal with victory over sin - but Romans 8:1-3 makes the case that this does not mean that saints get to heaven without a Savior. Even the best saint - needs the benefits of the Gospel - for all 'have sinned" but it is not the case that "all ARE sinning".

Paul's argument in Romans 6 is that we are set free not only from the penalty of sin - but also from slavery to sinning.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Indeed - I have been saying that Romans 7 begins with the case of the lost person - and ends with the case of the saved.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Indeed - I have been saying that Romans 7 begins with the case of the lost person - and ends with the case of the saved.

So the man of Romans 7 is in a saved condition(no condemnation) even though he is getting defeated by the sin nature?

As John said in 1John 2:1 "These things I write unto you that you sin not - but if anyone does sin we have an advocate with the Father".

The Gospel message is not that each time you sin - you are lost and have to be "re-saved again". But he does need forgiveness of new sin. A heart of repentance and turning from that sin - by "walking by the Spirit" - for "the weapons of our warfare are divinely powerful for the tearing down of strongholds... we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" 2Cor 10:4-5

But if the man at the end of Romans 7 (saved saint - new born and all) does not move on to Romans 8 - then like Peter who said to Christ "no lord - may it never be" in Matt 16 - Christ says to him "get thee behind me Satan".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Even the best saint - needs the benefits of the Gospel - for all 'have sinned" but it is not the case that "all ARE sinning".

[BobRyan]

Yes, Christ defeated our bent-to-self, but His primary focus was not so we could emulate Him, but rather for Him to save us from the curse of the law. Then, He is our example.

John 14:15 - "IF you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments".

John says that to claim to know and love Christ - and yet not to "Walk as HE walked" is to claim something false.

We have all sinned - we all need a Savior - and by contrast Jesus did not sin - and He needed no savior. But beyond that - once we become the "new Creation" of 2Cor 5 - we are called by God to "Walk as He walked" - not in rebellion against the Law of God but rather in the "obedience of faith" with the New Covenant reality of the "Law of God written on mind and heart" Heb 8.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Indeed - I have been saying that Romans 7 begins with the case of the lost person - and ends with the case of the saved.

So the man of Romans 7 is in a saved condition(no condemnation) even though he is getting defeated by the sin nature?

[BobRyan]

But she did argue for "cease to sin" just as we see in 1John 2:1 and Romans 6 and Romans 2:13.

[Robert]

But she did argue for "cease to sin" just as we see in 1John 2:1 and Romans 6 and Romans 2:13.

Great, then do it, but it won't contribute to what you already have in Christ by faith.