La Sierra rejects gay, lesbian club

[John317]

...I keep reading on this ( and other ) topics that you God changes you. Yet I don't think he does. I think he might give you strength to follow through on the choices you make to improve yourself, but in the end the choice is based on your own personal inspiration.

Yes, God certainly does give us stength and power to live for Him, because we couldn't do it otherwise.

But also, He's the One who gives us a desire to live for Him in the first place. He convicts us of our sins and of the need to make the change.

[BobRyan]

Exactly right John317!

In 2Cor 5 we find "the change" -- "If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation - old things are passed away - all things have become new".

In John 3 we find "the change" -- "unless you are born-again you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven".

In Romans 3 we find the "old unchanged" person who does not seek after God and is evil - according to Romans 8:7 the lost person with a mind set on the world - the flesh "does not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they". They are as Romans 6 states - enslaved to sinning.

In James 4 - God says that to be friends with the world - is to be at war with God. Yet for some - friendship with the world is the only thing that really counts.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Quote:

I think he might give you strength to follow through on the choices you make to improve yourself, but in the end the choice is based on your own personal inspiration.

I think where the misunderstanding comes in, and often the same with some christians, is that the change is about which desire we follow, not necessarily the core person. That is what God changes, not what we are, but how we control that which is harmful to us. If God was 'changing' us, then why the 2nd coming? I believe we often use 'change' in the wrong context.

There is no change of character in us to be made by God at the 2nd coming or the resurrection from the dead. We are raised from the dead just as we went into the grave - in terms of the character and love of the world that we had.

This is why Paul begins his statement in 1Cor 6 with "do not be deceived".

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

A "sodomite" is a homosexual, and fornication includes all kinds of sexual immorality. In 1 Cor. 6: 10, it lists homosexuals who are passive and homosexuals who are active. In most gay relationships, one partner is generally in the passive(feminine) role and the other active (masculine), although some change or switch roles.

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

I understand that homosexuality includes sodomy. I guess I don't understand why that is on the list either.I am also aware of the dynamics of a homosexual relationship sexually speaking. What I don't understand is why it is considered immoral if you have to people that love and care for each other. Just does not make sense to me what so ever.

OK, I used to wonder the same thing. I couldn't understand why it was wrong for me to be with a man.

Back in the 1970s, a gay SDA friend of mine told me that his mom was OK with his gay relationship with a man because she said that at least they loved each other and weren't doing any harm to anyone. I was shocked that his mom was OK with his homosexual practices because my parents didn't think that way at all. My parents didn't lecture me about being gay but at the same time I knew they didn't approve of my relationships and my lifestyle. They visited my lover and I at our place, and they showed interest and respect towards him, but yet I knew they didn't approve of what we were doing.

Over the years, I had three "long-term" relationships with different men. By "long-term," I mean relationships that lasted 3-5 years during which I lived with a lover. Among gay males, that's considered a "long-term" relationship.

So during those years and afterwards, it made no sense to me that it was wrong for me to be with them. After all, we were really happy together, and we were only together because we loved being with one another. What's wrong with that?

But after thinking about the subject and studying the Bible on the topic for a very long time, I believe I understand, finally, why it is wrong.

Like alcoholism, drug addiction, bestiality, and many other behaviors, homosexuality destroys/perverts/twists the image of God in us. God didn't create the male body to have sexual relations with other males. Similarly God did not create the female body to have sexual relations with other females or with an animal. Homosexuality, irrespective of how we feel about it, is contrary to God's plan and God's will for human beings, who were created in God's image. It is using our members (body parts) in ways that God never intended-- in ways that God condemns because they are perversions of His plan. It's a counterfeit love-relationship. Satan has a counterfeit for everything that God made, and homosexuality is one of those counterfeits.

I got to the place where I preferred the counterfeit to the genuine. I didn't want to leave it because I felt that it brought me such satisfaction and fulfillment. And in the flesh, it really did. Apart from the Holy Spirit giving me insight and conviction, I never would have left it, and if it weren't for the Holy Spirit, I would return to it. The real reason I couldn't go back to it now is that I always have in my mind's eye the love that Jesus has for me and the work He is doing for me right now in the heavenly sanctuary. God sees me as He sees Jesus and I can't throw that gift away.

[John317]

X10

[John317]

There is no change of character in us to be made by God at the 2nd coming or the resurrection from the dead. We are raised from the dead just as we went into the grave - in terms of the character and love of the world that we had.

So true, and so important to understand.

[M. T. Cross]

First John let me thank you for your open and honest answer. I really appreciate it.

Contrary to how it might seem I really do admire you for making the changes you did in your life. While I do not see the problem with homosexuality - you do and in that case it would be very wrong for you to continue in it.

I guess the difference of opinion I have is based on the fact that I see the Bible as a collection of thoughts of men, not the word of the Divine. I think parts of it and even many parts of it were inspired by study and contemplation of the Divine by very spiritual people. But in my opinion it, like almost everything ever written or touched by humans is twisted and influenced by personal bias and predjudice. This of course is my personal view based on my experience.

Where I have an issue is this. The official stance of the church on homosexuality is fair enough based on the doctrine the church holds. However the rest of the official statement - posted in another thread the other day does not ring true to reality in my experience. Now bear in mind that this of course is my experience and not based on what happens everywhere. My experience is that the majority of SDA's will shun you, judge you and condemn you if you display any tendency towards anything that differs from their perception of the doctrinal norm. Not only that, but they will then approach anyone in the church that does not do that to you and admonish them for being kind to you. This does nothing but drive the person in question further away and make them feel more alienated than they did before.

Now this is why I have an issue with La Sierra's decision. Maybe they need to lay down some ground rules for this group. Maybe they need to ensure that it is not just a hook up club. But to outright reject it - imo - is simply another approach to shunning, judging and condemning.

[Gail]

Quote:

My experience is that the majority of SDA's will shun you, judge you and condemn you if you display any tendency towards anything that differs from their perception of the doctrinal norm. Not only that, but they will then approach anyone in the church that does not do that to you and admonish them for being kind to you. This does nothing but drive the person in question further away and make them feel more alienated than they did before.

Let them try!! First of all the one contemporary SDA church I attend would be quite the opposite. They specialize in welcoming those who are "different".

The other, more traditional one would indeed have some older members who might try it, but there are also many others who are very kind in any circumstance. I would not hesitate to bring guests of any background there.

Things have changed since you attended many years ago. But I think you would be surprised.

[Gail]

I would like to see environments where a person is free to learn Biblical morality without being condemned. Why? So that s/he would also feel free to count the church family as a support system to them if/when the need to change arises.

[M. T. Cross]

I have no doubt that in some churches the attitude has changed Gail. I see that here at C/A as well - I also see a lot of the old attitude as well. But that is why I was careful to say that this is my experience. I know that things have not changed a great deal here at our local church from some of the dealings I have had with local members.

Quote:

I would like to see environments where a person is free to learn Biblical morality without being condemned. Why? So that s/he would also feel free to count the church family as a support system to them if/when the need to change arises.

Indeed! I would take that a step further to include any spiritual environment. People all arrive at things in different ways.

[John317]

I would like to see environments where a person is free to learn Biblical morality without being condemned. Why? So that s/he would also feel free to count the church family as a support system to them if/when the need to change arises.

There's a sense in which the learning of biblical morality should take place before a person becomes a member of the church. Of course all of us are in the process of learning, but basic biblical morality should be a part of Bible studies and preparation for baptism.

I believe the failure to do this accounts for a lot of problems in the church. It shouldn't often be the case that people join the church and then find out that they're not in agreement with what the Bible teaches or what the church believes. That is a big reason that people drop out of the church-- they simply don't believe what most other SDAs believe and teach.

I think this principle of knowing biblical morality and the church doctrines especially applies to gay people who decide to join the SDA Church. They shouldn't become a member of the church if they know they're going to practice homosexuality and they have no plan to stop. If they continue living that way and yet call themselves SDAs, they are really harming the church and betraying the other members. Why? Because members who are practicing homosexuality give a false impression to other Christians about the SDA Church and, more importantly, about Christ's power to help people resist and overcome sin. It also gives other people outside the church the idea that the SDA church is either OK with homosexuality or that the church is indifferent towards sins practiced by its members.

My own opinion is that it would be better for practicing gays who plan on continuing to practice and believe God accepts homosexuality, to attend another church which agrees with them about homosexuality.

But one thing I want to make really clear is that I believe the SDA church has an obligation to work closely with those practicing homosexuals in order to try and persuade them to change their mind before leaving the church. The pastor and the elders should make it a priority to visit such people and show themselves friendly and loving. If the person leaves the church-- or is disfellowshipped-- there shouldn't ever be any doubt in the individual's mind that the congregation sincerely loved and wanted them. If that hasn't been done, I don't believe it's right to proceed with the disfellowshipping process. Everything that can be done should be done to avoid disfellowshipping.

[JoeMo]

John,

I know a lot of people here are asking you about your personal experience as a non-practicing gay SDA. I'm gonna ask a few personal questions now, too - but don't feel obligated to answer if you don't feel comfortable doing so.

When you were a practicing gay, were you ever disfellowshipped or threatened with being disfellowshipped? If you continued membership in the church, did you attend church regularly, even though people in the congregation knew you were a practicing gay? If you were never disfellowshipped, but had been (and subsequently shunned as is the usual case), would you be the same person you are today, or do you think you still may be practicing?

I've said it before and will say it again - I admire you for your openness in this thread. Thank you; and God bless you!

[John317]

Now this is why I have an issue with La Sierra's decision. Maybe they need to lay down some ground rules for this group. Maybe they need to ensure that it is not just a hook up club. But to outright reject it - imo - is simply another approach to shunning, judging and condemning.

That's why I went to the UCR campus-- to find out what Prism stands for-- but I didn't see anyone from Prism at the party. I don't know if they came but then left early. It could be that some of Prism's members were in the audience but didn't identify themselves. Or it could be the members who came were so few that no one knew who they were.

In any case, the program I saw would not have been accepted by the SDA administrators at La Sierra. (Not necessarily because they would have found it personally offense, but rather because of the school's policy and fear of the church's reaction.) It was basically a party in the ordinary sense of that term--- at least the part that I saw. I got there late, though, so I can't say anything about what happened during the first two or so hours. I hope they had some discussions about the biblical morality of homosexual practices, but I seriously doubt that happened since it took place on the campus of a public university.

I got the distinct impression that the people there would not welcome a talk about how to stop their homosexual practices. I'm pretty sure they felt the same way I did about the issue before 2004.

[BobRyan]

In any case, the program I saw would not have been accepted by the SDA adminitrators at La Sierra. It was basically a party in the ordinary sense of that term--- at least the part that I saw. I got there late, though, so I can't say anything about what happened during the first two or so hours. I hope they had some discussions about the biblical morality of homosexual practices, but I seriously doubt that happened since it took place on the campus of a public university.

I got the distinct impression that the people there would not welcome a talk about how to stop their homosexual practices.

A lot of people in the 1Cor 6 groups could probably identify with not wanting to give up sin. So I think your observations are very accurate.

in Christ,

Bob

[SivartM]

In any case, the program I saw would not have been accepted by the SDA administrators at La Sierra.

Of course not, because it wasn't Prism, it was an event in which Prism took part (although you mentioned that you didn't see many from La Sierra there). That's not a reasonable sample from which to draw judgment on a group.

[John317]

....When you were a practicing gay, were you ever disfellowshipped or threatened with being disfellowshipped?

No, I was never disfellowshipped, I never received any kind of threat or warning of it. In fact, I never was even approached by an SDA (except my parents) in regard to being gay. When I look back, I feel that it was not a good sign that no one in the church ever talked to me about it. In fact, no one in the church ever visited me when I stopped attending church regularly as I had been doing all of my life up to that point.

But it wasn't the church's fault, because I left the area to hitch-hike to New York, and then when I got back from that trip, I went into the military almost immediately. Soon after the military, I moved to San Diego. But I did occassionally attend the SDA Church there. In fact, the pastor of that church lent me a Catholic Bible for my boy friend. I didn't tell the pastor I was gay and had a lover, but I think he probably suspected it. He was a wonderful pastor and was always very friendly and welcoming to me. The other people there were also very nice. I don't know if any of them suspected that I'm gay, but they didn't say anything about it.

I learned how to hide my sexual "orientation," though, when around straight people, so that could be the reason they didn't talk to me about it. I'm not a feminine type of gay, anyway, at least outwardly.

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

If you continued membership in the church, did you attend church regularly, even though people in the congregation knew you were a practicing gay?

Once I "came out," I didn't attend church regularly until after I was rebaptized in 1973. I attended regularly at that time and for the next 10 years, even working for awhile as an associate pastor. But during that time, I didn't reveal to anyone that I had been a practicing gay.

No, I take that back. I did reveal it to an SDA psychologist and also to someone I knew at my work at Loma Linda University Medical Center. Later I also talked about it to an SDA pastor at the LLU Church. All of these people were very accepting of me and of my homosexuality. In fact, I believe they were too accepting of my homosexuality. None of them told me that God could help me stop those things. They didn't even tell me that they believe it was a sin. One SDA pastor near Seattle where I lived for a couple of years told me that he didn't think it was a sin as long as the gay person was in a monogomous relationship.

So when I say that I didn't reveal to anyone that I'd been a practicing gay, I mean I didn't tell people in the congregations I went to. And of course while serving as an associate pastor, I didn't tell people there, either.

I was very nervous, by the way, lest I got too "close" to people and they would suspect me of being gay. I was very much afraid of this. And I still am. The fear keeps me from being completely myself around church members. I suppose it would be better if I stood up in the middle of church and told them straight out that I am gay, but I have my family to think about. I know it would embarrass them-- although my eldest daughter knows about it. I have never talked directly about it to my son or to my 2 younger daughters. It's not something I can talk freely to people about, except on this Forum. I only talk about it here because ParadeOrange/GayforJesus persuaded me that I should do it in order to help other gays see what God can do in their lives.

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

If you were never disfellowshipped, but had been (and subsequently shunned as is the usual case), would you be the same person you are today, or do you think you still may be practicing?

Good question. I honestly don't know how I would have reacted if I had been disfellowshipped or shunned. I wasn't shunned by the evangelist who held the meetings where I made my decision for Christ and to be baptized. I know my former lover was not shunned, either. Perhaps the church where we attended and were baptized weren't aware that we were gay, but if they didn't know, it was because the elder and the other SDAs in the church who knew didn't broadcast it around. I don't see how they didn't know,though, because in the first month or so, it seems it should have been pretty obvious. We were like a couple and I am sure they could have seen how much I loved him and how close we were.

I still love him but now my love for him causes me to be concerned (and pray) about his relationship with Christ and his salvation. When I visited him for a week this past July, the tender feelings came back and I knew I couldn't stay at his place. We did give each other kisses and hold hands, but not like before. We were just glad to see each other and talk about what was going on in our lives. He lives within walking distance of an SDA church, but he apparently has only been in it once before. I didn't talk to him directly about his spirituality because I had the feeling he didn't want to talk about it. We still do communicate, though, so the time will come eventually when I will talk to him about those things. It's very apparent to me that he's "backslidden," but I can also tell that he's not as far into the gay life as he used to be. He used to be the life of the party and he loved being in the limelight in the bars and whereever he went. He was in theater and worked (as I said before) as a professional female impersonator, but I am certain he's no longer doing those things.

I know he was sincere when he accepted Christ and was baptized. But he didn't have much spiritual support after we went our separate ways. He became a teacher and eventually moved for a long period of time to Honolulu. I had a hard time making contact with him again,so he had no one to encourage him. In fact, during the 1980s while he was teaching and the president of the teacher's union, someone who was running for his position black-mailed him because of his homosexual past. He ended up having to leave that area.

Please pray for him, that God will have His way in my friend's life and save Him in His kingdom. Just say "John's friend" and God will know who you mean. Don't ever stop praying because things can happen even if it takes 20- 30 years. I know because it happened to me and I've seen it happen to others as well.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

In any case, the program I saw would not have been accepted by the SDA administrators at La Sierra.

Of course not, because it wasn't Prism, it was an event in which Prism took part (although you mentioned that you didn't see many from La Sierra there). That's not a reasonable sample from which to draw judgment on a group.

I didn't see a single person from Prism as far as I know. I talked to people during and after the party, and no one I spoke to knew anyone there from Prism.

I am not judging the group by what happened at the party at UCR. I am simply saying that the party I attended wouldn't be allowed on the La Sierra campus. Why not? Because it was mostly a lot of joking about being gay and in a way that wouldn't be acceptable on an SDA college campus-- at least based on my experience as a student at La Sierra.

It could be that the people from Prism left when they saw what was going on at the party, but I doubt it, because Prism was one of the sponsers and should have known ahead of time who the entertainers were and what they would be talking about.

Nevertheless, I'm not judging Prism on the basis of the party. I won't make up my mind about Prism until I've had a chance to talk to them on the La Sierra campus. They may completely surprise me. I really hope they do.

[JoeMo]

Hey John,

Thanks for being so forthright. Words in a post can't reveal how much I am learning from you. The non-practicing gays from my own church have never been as open and honest as you are. You are truly a reflection of what Jesus died to provide for us . You are holding back nothing. You are risking a reputation to honestly show what you have gone through and continue to experience. You have my honor and respect.

Father God,

I thank you for my brother John317. We may not agree on every point of discussion that comes up here, but we agree one one thing - that your grace not only forgives our sins, but brings us the power to overcome every obstacle that comes between us and you. Thank you for the blessing you have given me and others through John's testimony!

Father, I also pray for John's happiness and joy, because he has overcome by Your blood! I also lift up John's friend to You, that he may experience the same victory as John; and be strengthened by Your grace and power. May they both experience fullness of life and joy and fellowship, Lord. By Your grace, I pray that they remain close to each other and you.

Thank you for the example John is providing for others in the gay SDA community. May he continue to be a light to all those who struggle with the conflict between their faith and their sexuality. Bring them all into the fullness of Your grace and Your Kingdom! I pray this in the Name of your Son, Jesus Christ who is able to keep us from falling and present us faultless before You! To Him be the glory, power and honor forever! Amen.

[John317]

Wow-- thank you so much for that blessing, JoeMo!! That means a whole lot, believe me. I particularly appreciate the prayer for my friend. I pray that the Holy Spirit will touch his heart and draw him close to Jesus and give him a deep desire to live for God.

I just found this amazing promise in Ellen White's writings:

Quote:

"Men may have a power to resist evil—a power that neither earth, nor death, nor hell can master; a power that will place them where they may overcome as Christ overcame. Divinity and humanity may be combined in them." – {1SM 409.1}

And this:

Quote:

The Spirit was to be given as a regenerating agent, and without this the sacrifice of Christ would have been of no avail. The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of men to this satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power. It is the Spirit that makes effectual what has been wrought out by the world's Redeemer. It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given His Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress His own character upon His church. {DA 671.2}

[John317]

...

You say God can change you. Why is it then that you have stated on numerous occasions that you still consider yourself to be gay? You have mentioned in this thread that you do not trust your self to interact to much with other gay people as you could easily return to that lifestyle?

See that to me does not sound like God changed you. It sounds more like you reached a conviction that homosexuality was morally wrong and made a choice not to live that way anymore. If that was your moral conviction I applaud you for making that choice, but it does not sound to me that you were changed and are now a hetro, it sounds like you are a gay man trying to live a straight life.

When I say God can change us, I mean that He can give us new motives, a new mind and heart. We become different people than we were before. Others notice a big difference in us.

God doesn't necessarily turn a gay person into a heterosexual, although this does sometimes happen; but He gives us the strength to resist temptation and eventually brings us to the point where the sexual temptations are either non-existent or not as strong as they once were. Sometimes this happens almost over night, but usually it takes place over an extended period of time.

Yes, I did reach the conviction that homosexuality is morally wrong, but I didn't reach this conviction naturally. If I were to go by my natural inclinations, I would still be practicing gay sex. I am still very attracted to men, but the difference is that I don't have a desire to have sex with them. The only explanation is that God has changed my desires. I believe it's because God really does write His law on our hearts and minds. His laws become a part of us.

There is no sin in a man being attracted to men any more than there's sin in a man being attracted to women. The sin is in allowing that attraction to cause us to desire or imagine having sex with them. When I find myself doing that, I immediately give it over to Christ, because I know where it would lead me if I continued to entertain those thoughts.

I'm not going to go into details about how deep I got into sexual immorality, but it was almost a constant obsession. I didn't decide to leave off doing those things because those things made me unhappy or unfulfilled. Quite the contrary. I enjoyed it and found it exciting. This went on almost continually for nearly 40 years.

Am I a gay man trying to live a heterosexual life? I guess you could put it that way. I am certainly gay and I am certainly not practicing gay sex. I am married to a woman and have children. I am glad to be married to my wife. It's wonderful to have my children. They really are a gift from God. But what I really am is a person doing my best to obey God's commandments. My greatest joy comes from knowing and loving Jesus and seeing my children and my wife learning to know and love Him, too.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Bible

Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God

I guess I just don't get it.

I just can not see how homosexuals fit in there.

I understand that homosexuality includes sodomy. I guess I don't understand why that is on the list either. I am also aware of the dynamics of a homosexual relationship sexually speaking. What I don't understand is why it is considered immoral if you have to people that love and care for each other. Just does not make sense to me what so ever.

Please read the following verses (especially verses 15-20) because I think they help explain why the pracitice of homosexuality (as well as other practices) are wrong:

Quote:

1 Cor. 6:9-20

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

[12] "All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything. [13] "Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food"—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. [14] And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. [15] Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! [16] Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two will become one flesh." [17] But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. [18] Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. [19] Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, [20] for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

I would be interested in knowing your thoughts about these verses-- whether they are of any use in helping to explain the reasons that homosexual practices are wrong.

[phkrause]

Hey John,

Thanks for being so forthright. Words in a post can't reveal how much I am learning from you. The non-practicing gays from my own church have never been as open and honest as you are. You are truly a reflection of what Jesus died to provide for us . You are holding back nothing. You are risking a reputation to honestly show what you have gone through and continue to experience. You have my honor and respect.

Father God,

I thank you for my brother John317. We may not agree on every point of discussion that comes up here, but we agree one one thing - that your grace not only forgives our sins, but brings us the power to overcome every obstacle that comes between us and you. Thank you for the blessing you have given me and others through John's testimony!

Father, I also pray for John's happiness and joy, because he has overcome by Your blood! I also lift up John's friend to You, that he may experience the same victory as John; and be strengthened by Your grace and power. May they both experience fullness of life and joy and fellowship, Lord. By Your grace, I pray that they remain close to each other and you.

Thank you for the example John is providing for others in the gay SDA community. May he continue to be a light to all those who struggle with the conflict between their faith and their sexuality. Bring them all into the fullness of Your grace and Your Kingdom! I pray this in the Name of your Son, Jesus Christ who is able to keep us from falling and present us faultless before You! To Him be the glory, power and honor forever! Amen.

Amen

[olger]

John speaks with a good bit of authority on this topic..

And I appreciate his honesty and commitment to a life that honors the Lord.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: Bible

Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God

I guess I just don't get it.

I just can not see how homosexuals fit in there.

I understand that homosexuality includes sodomy. I guess I don't understand why that is on the list either. I am also aware of the dynamics of a homosexual relationship sexually speaking. What I don't understand is why it is considered immoral if you have to people that love and care for each other. Just does not make sense to me what so ever.

[olger]

Did a pagan just admit to humans having a soul..???