bonnie Posted December 12, 2012 Posted December 12, 2012 Let's Give Chivalry Another Chance By Emily Esfahani Smith Dec 10 2012, 12:25 PM ET 528 It's been unfairly maligned as sexist, but women and men alike would benefit from bringing it back. smith_chivalry2_post.jpg College Humor This past spring marked the 100th anniversary of the sinking of the Titanic. On April 14, 1912, as the ship was on its maiden journey from Southampton, UK, to New York City, it hit an iceberg in the North Atlantic. About three hours later, it sank. Three-quarters of the women on the ship survived; over three quarters of the men, by contrast, died. In Washington DC, there is a memorial to these men. The inscription on it reads: "To the brave men who perished in the wreck of the Titanic...They gave their lives that women and children might be saved." About a year ago, a group of today's men were tested the way that the men on board the Titanic were. When the cruise ship Costa Concordia hit a rock and capsized off the coast of Isola del Giglio, Tuscany, last January, men pushed women and children out of the way to save themselves. One Australian woman on board reported at the time: The people that pushed their way on to the boat were then trying to tell them to shut the door, not to let any more people on the [life] boat after they had pushed their way on...We just couldn't believe it—especially the men, they were worse than the women. This contrast is indicative of a larger trend—the decline of chivalry and the rise of boorish behavior among men. According to a 2010 Harris poll, 80 percent of Americans say that women are treated with less chivalry today than in the past. This is a problem that all women—especially feminists—should push back against. *** After the women's liberation movement of the 1960s, which insisted on the equal treatment of women in all domains of life, feminists dismissed chivalry as sexist. They still do. A new study, published in the feminist journal Psychology of Women Quarterly, questions the entire enterprise of male chivalry, which, in an Orwellian flourish, it calls "benevolent sexism." Chivalrous behavior is benevolent because it flatters women and leads to their preferential treatment. But it is sexist because it relies on the "gendered premise" that women are weak and in need of protection while men are strong. "Benevolent sexism," Kathleen Connelly and Martin Heesacker of the University of Florida write in the study, "is an ideology that perpetuates gender inequality." They advocate interventions to reduce its prevalence, even though, they found, chivalry is associated with greater life satisfaction and the sense that the world is fair, well-ordered, and a good place. Related Story A Plan to Reboot Dating Charles Murray, the libertarian social scientist at the American Enterprise Institute, summed up the study with tongue-in-cheek, writing "the bad news is that gentlemanly behavior makes people happy." He goes on to ask, "When social scientists discover something that increases life satisfaction for both sexes, shouldn't they at least consider the possibility that they have come across something that is positive? Healthy? Something that might even conceivably be grounded in the nature of Homo sapiens?" In an interview, Connelly tells me that despite Murray's points, the problem with chivalry is that it assumes "women are wonderful but weak." This assumption of female weakness puts women down, Connelly says. Perhaps because of women's ambivalence about chivalry, men have grown confused about how to treat women. Will holding doors open for them or paying for the first date be interpreted as sexist? Does carrying their groceries imply they're weak? The breakdown in the old rules, which at one extreme has given rise to the hookup culture, has killed dating and is leaving a lot of well-meaning men and women at a loss. *** Historically, the chivalry ideal and the practices that it gave rise to were never about putting women down, as Connelly and other feminists argue. Chivalry, as a social idea, was about respecting and aggrandizing women, and recognizing that their attention was worth seeking, competing for, and holding. If there is a victim of "benevolent sexism," it is not the career-oriented single college-aged feminist. Rather, it is unconstrained masculinity. "We should have a clear notion of what chivalry is," argues Pier Massimo Forni, an award-winning professor of Italian literature and the founder of the Civility Institute at Johns Hopkins. "It was a form of preferential treatment that men once accorded to women generations ago, inspired by the sense that there was something special about women, that they deserve added respect, and that not doing so was uncouth, cowardly and essentially despicable." Chivalry arose as a response to the violence and barbarism of the Middle Ages. It cautioned men to temper their aggression, deploying it only in appropriate circumstances—like to protect the physically weak and defenseless members of society. As the author and self-described "equity feminist" Christina Hoff Sommers tells me in an interview, "Masculinity with morality and civility is a very powerful force for good. But masculinity without these virtues is dangerous—even lethal." Chivalry is grounded in a fundamental reality that defines the relationship between the sexes, she explains. Given that most men are physically stronger than most women, men can overpower women at any time to get what they want. Gentlemen developed symbolic practices to communicate to women that they would not inflict harm upon them and would even protect them against harm. The tacit assumption that men would risk their lives to protect women only underscores how valued women are—how elevated their status is—under the system of chivalry. A story from the life of Samuel Proctor (d. 1997) comes to mind here. Proctor was the beloved pastor of Harlem's Abyssinian Baptist Church. Apparently, he was in the elevator one day when a young woman came in. Proctor tipped his hat at her. She was offended and said, "What is that supposed to mean?" The pastor's response was: "Madame, by tipping my hat I was telling you several things. That I would not harm you in any way. That if someone came into this elevator and threatened you, I would defend you. That if you fell ill, I would tend to you and if necessary carry you to safety. I was telling you that even though I am a man and physically stronger than you, I will treat you with both respect and solicitude. But frankly, Madame, it would have taken too much time to tell you all of that; so, instead, I just tipped my hat." *** Some women are trying to bring back chivalry. Since 2009, for instance, a group of women at Arizona State University have devoted themselves to resuscitating gentlemanly behavior and chivalry on a campus whose social life is overwhelmingly defined by partying, frat life, and casual sex. Every spring for the past three years, these women have gathered for the "Gentlemen's Showcase" to honor men who have acted chivalrously by, for example, opening the door for a woman or digging a woman's car out of several feet of snow. The event has spread to campuses nationwide. Its goal is "to encourage mutual respect between the sexes," Karin Agness tells me in an interview. Agness is the founder and president of the Network of Enlightened Women, the organization that hosts Gentlemen's Showcases at colleges each spring. "The current framework is not generating healthy relationships," Blayne Bennett, the organizer of ASU's first Gentlemen's Showcase, has said. "I believe that chivalry provides the positive framework to maximize the overall happiness of men and women." Women, she said, "want to be treated like ladies." Bennett and her fellow chivalry advocates have the right idea. "If women give up on chivalry, it will be gone," Sommers tells me. "If boys can get away with being boorish, they will, happily. Women will pay the price." If feminists want to level the playing field between men and women, they should find common cause with traditionalist women, like those at ASU, on the issue of chivalry. Both groups are concerned with how men treat women. They just differ in what that means: Feminists want men to treat women as equals; traditionalists want men to treat women like ladies. Are the two mutually exclusive? Chivalry is about respect. It is about not harming or hurting others, especially those who are more vulnerable than you. It is about putting other people first and serving others often in a heroic or courageous manner. It is about being polite and courteous. In other words, chivalry in the age of post-feminism is another name we give to civility. When we give up on civility, understood in this way, we can never have relationships that are as meaningful as they could be. If women today—feminists and non-feminists alike—encouraged both men and women to adopt the principles of civil and chivalrous conduct, then the standards of behavior for the two sexes would be the same, fostering the equality that feminists desire. Moreover, the relations between the sexes would be once again based on mutual respect, as the traditionalists want. Men and women may end up being civil and well-mannered in different ways, but at least they would be civil and well-mannered, an improvement on the current situation. Through a tragic event that occurred last summer, our nation was jolted into recognizing chivalry's enduring power. During a screening of the Dark Knight, a deranged gunman opened fire in an Aurora, Colorado, theater, murdering twelve innocent people. Three men, all in their twenties, were in the audience that day with their girlfriends. When the shots rang out across the theater, these men threw themselves over their girlfriends, saving the women's lives. All three of the men died. At the time, Hanna Rosin noted that what these men did was "deeper" than chivalry. It was heroic. I agree. But heroism and chivalry share a basic feature in common—the recognition, a transcendent one, that there is something greater than the self worth protecting, and that there is something greater than the self worth sacrificing your own needs, desires, and even life for. If we can all agree that the kind of culture we should aspire to live in is one in which men and women protect and honor each other in the ways that they can—and not one in which men are pushing past women and children to save their own lives—then that is progress that women everywhere should support. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Narcah Posted December 12, 2012 Posted December 12, 2012 What did they expect? You want to be treated like men you will be. And trust me, it's not always pleasant. Quote -Jason Youtube.com/narcah
Moderators LynnDel Posted December 12, 2012 Moderators Posted December 12, 2012 I love it when a man opens the car door for me. It makes me feel special -- and unfortunately doesn't happen very often. LD Quote LD
Moderators Gerr Posted December 12, 2012 Moderators Posted December 12, 2012 Chivalry is a casualty of women's lib. Yes, LynnDel, I still open the doors for my wife and other women most of the time. Quote
Woody Posted December 12, 2012 Posted December 12, 2012 Some feel that chivalry is fine till the lines are signed. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
bonnie Posted December 12, 2012 Author Posted December 12, 2012 Some feel that chivalry is fine till the lines are signed. I don't know it is that so much as to many have bought into the notion women can have it all/Men can't have it all,but somehow women are entitled. I can have a bit of many things,but cannot have it all. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Members phkrause Posted December 12, 2012 Members Posted December 12, 2012 I'm with you Gerry, I still hold the door open for my wife and other women, and men for that matter, plus the elderly. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
cricket Posted December 12, 2012 Posted December 12, 2012 I'm a woman. I hold the door open for men, women, children, elderly, teens, physically and mentally challenged people. It is not chivalry that our society needs. Rather, it is respect for one another--regardless of sex, age, race--that we need. Quote
Woody Posted December 12, 2012 Posted December 12, 2012 I'm a woman. I hold the door open for men, women, children, elderly, teens, physically and mentally challenged people. It is not chivalry that our society needs. Rather, it is respect for one another--regardless of sex, age, race--that we need. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
SivartM Posted December 12, 2012 Posted December 12, 2012 I'm a woman. I hold the door open for men, women, children, elderly, teens, physically and mentally challenged people. It is not chivalry that our society needs. Rather, it is respect for one another--regardless of sex, age, race--that we need. Absolutely! Implicit in chivalry is the idea that women are weak, fragile butterflies in need of men's protection. That may have been culturally true in the middle ages, but it's not at all true today. Now that men and women are considered equal, people should focus on being kind to others rather than trying to preserve archaic gender roles. There are women who think that men ought to hold doors open for them. There are men who think that women ought to stay home and do all the cooking and cleaning. Instead of holding doors and cooking and cleaning because those are nice things to do, which can be done by most people of either gender with equal capability, they do them because they think that intrauterine hormones make men magically adept at door-opening and women magically adept at using a stove. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
bonnie Posted December 12, 2012 Author Posted December 12, 2012 Absolutely! Implicit in chivalry is the idea that women are weak, fragile butterflies in need of men's protection. That may have been culturally true in the middle ages, but it's not at all true today. Now that men and women are considered equal, people should focus on being kind to others rather than trying to preserve archaic gender roles. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Moderators LynnDel Posted December 12, 2012 Moderators Posted December 12, 2012 ... I also open doors for women---men-- the elderly --- etc Me too. I often see men and women opening doors, or holding doors open for those nearby. It's good to see so many having a care for others. Quote LD
olger Posted December 12, 2012 Posted December 12, 2012 I still hold doors open for women, or let them pass first with a "ladies first" smile. One of them went and told the check-out girl that I was old fashioned, and a real gentleman. Then she thanked me again and left. Contrast that with the college girl who soundly berated our oldest son for opening the door for her. sivart if you're not married you might want to look this one up... Make a good team. As to male & female, there are fundamental differences in the way that we were created. These differences are complimentary, as Bonnie indicated. Nancy is good at things that I am not, and I have strengths that she doesn't have. We compliment each other. Some verities learned in ten years of counseling: A woman cannot respect a man who isn't the spiritual leader in their home. A man has an innate desire to be respected. A woman has an innate need to feel protected & secure. Both need an emotional connection with each other. Women tend to speak almost twice as many words per day as men. There are exceptions, yes. The enemy is in the business of making our differences offensive (through lies). This leads to competition rather than cooperation. Where one man reads his Bible, a hundred men read you and me. "You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men." 2 Cor. 3:2 Rejoice always, `oG Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Moderators Bravus Posted December 12, 2012 Moderators Posted December 12, 2012 Quote: Women tend to speak almost twice as many words per day as men. There are exceptions, yes. Would like to see a source on this one. Not picking a fight, genuinely interested. I just *am* physically stronger than my wife and daughters, so for many brute-strength tasks like bringing lots of groceries in from the car up the steep steps, I volunteer. At the same time, some of the traditional masculine roles - like managing the money - my wife is far better at than me, so she does that. In other words, some differences are innate and real (though probably fewer than we imagine) and others are socially constructed. I do think feminism goes a step to far when someone is told off for opening a door for a woman: for one thing, how do you know he doesn't do it for men too? Simple courtesy and consideration are key values, and in fact are the outward manifestation of a loving heart. More of them in all directions is only something to be admired, emulated and advocated. Quote Truth is important
SivartM Posted December 12, 2012 Posted December 12, 2012 Equality does not mean the same. My husband is distinctly different than I am with different and better capabilities.In no way are my capabilities equal to his.The reverse is also true.I will always be a better mother than he could hope to be.He will always be a better father,two distinct roles but equal in importance. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
SivartM Posted December 12, 2012 Posted December 12, 2012 Some verities learned in ten years of counseling: A woman cannot respect a man who isn't the spiritual leader in their home. A man has an innate desire to be respected. A woman has an innate need to feel protected & secure. I'm sure a woman who is gifted with leadership would be quite able to respect a man who isn't. I would think that most people have an innate desire to feel respected AND protected and secure. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
bonnie Posted December 13, 2012 Author Posted December 13, 2012 Yes, you and your husband are different people with different skills. Generalizing your own lives to that of all men and women is a bit much. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
olger Posted December 13, 2012 Posted December 13, 2012 Quote: Women tend to speak almost twice as many words per day as men. There are exceptions, yes. Would like to see a source on this one. Not picking a fight, genuinely interested. 1 Corporate Wellness Magazine, “It’s all in your Head” Jason Krausert and Donna Tosky, May 2011 2 Scientific American, May 2005 There are various reasons for this difference. When a woman is upset she generally needs to talk about it. Wise husbands recognizing this will lend a listening ear to their wives during such moments, instead of thinking about how cool it would be to parachute off a skyscraper (umm…guilty). On the flip side, when a man is troubled, we tend to go quiet or go ape, depending on the circumstances. In 2007 researchers at the University of Pennsylvania conducted functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging scans to try to understand how men and women handle stress. Among the findings? Anxiety activates the "tend and befriend" reaction in women's limbic systems and the "fight or flight" response in men's prefrontal cortexes. Translation: Under pressure, women reach out, while guys go Rambo, or clam up (1). I’m not a big fan of the “Men are from Mars and women are from Kansas” or whatever that book was called but I am a fan of the Bible, and the Scriptures tell us that men and women are fundamentally different in our created roles. And it’s a good thing. "The brains of men and women, while similar in many ways, are more different than most scientists ever realized," says Larry Cahill, Ph.D., an associate at the University of California, where he researches emotion, memory, and the brain (2). In 1996, I purchased the book "Brain Sex" for my library. Despite its provocative title, this informative book by David Jessel and Ann Moir helped me to understand what people like James Dobson, and Gary Smalley already knew. Men and women tend to think differently. Not wrong, just different. One benefit that some women derive from their wiring is the ability to utter those three little words. “I was wrong.” They may not admit it to men but they’ll admit it to others of their persuasion. Men have that ability too. Just not very often. The last man to use the “Sorry, I was wrong” box was Custer at Little Big Horn after he told his men, “Here they come boys. Don’t take any prisoners!” UhOh™. With God we can do better than that. A 2004 CBS News segment quotes Kate White, the Editor-in-Chief of Cosmopolitan, citing numbers in the same range: "We make the mistake as women sometimes of thinking that, because (men are) different, there is something wrong. The average guy speaks 2,000 to 4,000 words a day and the average woman 6,000 to 8,000. So we're different, but it doesn't mean there is something the matter with the relationship." A 1999 article in The Nationalist tells us: "Research shows that women can speak 20,000 to 25,000 words a day compared to men’s paltry 7,000 to 10,000." In the obviously serious volume Counseling Criminal Justice Offenders, Ruth E. Masters wrote "Females use an estimated 25,000 words per day and males use an estimated 12,000 words per day. "In The Female Mind, Dr Luan Brizendine says women devote more brain cells to talking than men. And, if that wasn't enough, the simple act of talking triggers a flood of brain chemicals which give women a rush similar to that felt by heroin addicts when they get a high. Dr Brizendine, a self-proclaimed feminist, says the differences can be traced back to the womb, where the sex hormone testosterone moulds the developing male brain. The areas responsible for communication, emotion and memory are all pared back the unborn baby boy. The result is that boys - and men - chat less than their female counterparts and struggle to express their emotions to the same extent. "Women have an eight-lane superhighway for processing emotion, while men have a small country road," said Dr Brizendine, who runs a female "mood and hormone" clinic in San Francisco. But what the male brain may lack in conversatation and emotion, they more than make up with in their ability to think about sex. Dr Brizendine says the brain's "sex processor" - the areas responsible for sexual thoughts - is twice as big as in men than in women, perhaps explaining why men are stereotyped as having sex on the mind. Studies have shown that while a man will think about sex every 52 seconds, the subject tends to cross women's minds just once a day, the University of California psychiatrist says. Dr Brizendine, whose book is based on her own clinical work and analyses of more than 1,000 scientific studies, added: "There is no unisex brain. "Girls arrive already wired as girls, and boys arrive already wired as boys. Their brains are different by the time they're born, and their brains are what drive their impulses, values and their very reality. I know it is not politically correct to say this but I've been torn for years between my politics and what science is telling us. I believe women actually perceive the world differently from men." Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
bonnie Posted December 13, 2012 Author Posted December 13, 2012 We raised my brother's four children along with ours.2 girls. Worst little tomboys you ever saw. Boys and girls had to wash dishes,do laundry,vacuum,clean the barn and do outside chores. Sports or a not so friendly scuffle they gave as good as they got. They were still distinctly different than the six boys Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Moderators Gerr Posted December 13, 2012 Moderators Posted December 13, 2012 Quote: Women tend to speak almost twice as many words per day as men. There are exceptions, yes. Would like to see a source on this one. Not picking a fight, genuinely interested. Here's one source, Bravus. I would say my wife speaks at least 3-4x more than I. Quote
Woody Posted December 13, 2012 Posted December 13, 2012 Here's one Bravus: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/emotional-fitness/201008/men-women-emotions-and-communication Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
cricket Posted December 13, 2012 Posted December 13, 2012 I love being an exception! And, I love being married to an exception! We have two, great and exceptional kids! :) Quote
Woodenavaklu Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 I suspect that given that the article was written as humour it wasn't necessarily serious. Speaking as if it was though my thinking is that if women want chivalry then they should be prepared to pay the price that goes along with it. Quote
Woody Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 Wooden - This is Woody. We think alike. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
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