Separation required?

[Guest]

Knowing that all of heaven's counsel either from the KJV or the SOP is to assist us to separate ourselves from sin & become clean, but is there ever a time on the horizon when separation from sinners also will be required?

[wicklunds]

Yes! When the angels go a gathering and a bundling the wheat and the tares for the harvest, then the separation will be evident. With whom will you be bundled?

[Guest]

Dennis there is a statement somewhere that goes like this -It is impossible for you to unite with those who are corrupt, and still remain pure-

If you find this quote, please post it as I need to read the entire article again.

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"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? “ 2 Cor. 6:14

“The followers of Christ are to separate themselves from sinners, choosing their society only when there is opportunity to do them good. We cannot be too decided in shunning the company of those who exert an influence to draw us away from God. While we pray, "Lead us not into temptation," we are to shun temptation, so far as possible. {PP 458.2}

“The angel is to place a mark upon the forehead of all who are separated from sin and sinners, and the destroying angel will follow, to slay utterly both old and young. {5T 505.2}

[Bravus]

Since 'all have sinned and come short of the glory of God', a life separated from sinners would be a pretty lonely one. I know what you mean, Ed, and I agree that we need to avoid the company of those who influence us toward sin. But if we're fully exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit, and are strong in our own faith, 'choosing their society only when there is opportunity to do them good' could mean spending quite a lot of time with them.

[wicklunds]

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Bravus said:

Since '

all

have sinned and come short of the glory of God', a life separated from sinners would be a pretty lonely one. I know what you mean, Ed, and I agree that we need to avoid the company of those who influence us toward sin. But if we're fully exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit, and are strong in our own faith, 'choosing their society only when there is opportunity to do them good' could mean spending quite a lot of time with them.

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Bravus,

I would contend that if the fact that we are all sinners is a case for us to allow ourselves forbidden pleasures along with the rest of the world, then there is no reason for God to call individuals out of Babylon, or to call His chosen ones "peculiar" or "elect". Maybe it is true that in the sense that Paul calls all people sinners, he means that we have a history of sinful behavior and we are all under the penalty of the law without the blood of Jesus. But for us to make the text as an excuse to remain sinful, is a wrong application of it.

Dennis

[Bravus]

Please read more carefully, Dennis: I'm all for a life separated from *sin* (or 'forbidden pleasures'). What I was talking about - and disagreeing with - was separating ourselves from *people* on the grounds that they're sinners. Two quite different things.

So definitely no 'excuse to remain sinful': rather, a recognition that we are (or have been, as you say, although the discussion of whether we become perfectly sinless on this earth is one for Ed White) sinners ourselves, and are therefore in no position to hold ourselves aloof from others in fear that their grubbiness will smear our spotless robes. Our robes (of works) are still filthy rags compared to God's perfection, just as theirs are, and we all together require a Saviour. And we're better able to let them know that when we're standing beside them, not yelling down from the top of a tower.

[wicklunds]

Yes, I did reread your post and I am sorry that I hadnt read more of it in the beginning. But the point I made is still valid, though not a refutation of your post. I believe that God's people will not keep their light under a bushel no matter how much the unrepentant mock or jeer them. But there are limits and boundaries that we would logically place upon our sphere of fellowship. We wouldnt go into bars or nightclubs or strip-clubs thinking we were going to exert a holy influence, right? I mean I wouldnt feel comfortable doing this. I know there are individuals who feel not at all uncomfortable witnessing in these places. I did hear of a traveling colporeur/evangelist who went into a bar and sold books to the bartender one night. The man was converted after reading G.C. This story is not very common though.

One also has to think of the pleasure resorts in places like Thailand and Indonesia, Hawaii etc... Are these places, which are centers for heathenistic pleasure, the areas we should be avoiding? Obviously, there are missionaries in these areas, but should we be patronizing these places for merely a pleasurable vacation? I dunno sometimes.

Dennis

[Guest]

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Bravus said:

Since '

all

have sinned and come short of the glory of God', a life separated from sinners would be a pretty lonely one. I know what you mean, Ed, and I agree that we need to avoid the company of those who influence us toward sin. But if we're fully exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit, and are strong in our own faith, 'choosing their society only when there is opportunity to do them good' could mean spending quite a lot of time with them.

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Bravus where is the bible text that tells us "that beholding we are changed into the same image"? I believe that spending a lot of time with open sinners, expecially of those professing to be "a brother" could neturalize our own walk with God to some degree. This counsel in Corinthians of "not to eat" with the fellow now charging over a thousand dollars to do a root canal. He may teach the SS lesson at church, but to me I cannot eat with an "extortioner" anymore & still be true to bible counsel.

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"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." 5:11

[Gregory Matthews]

I had a root canal a few weeks back. It took four (4) hours, and over a two day period. Consider that was four hours of the time of the dentist and also of a dental assistant.

Now also consider the useage of one time dental tools that were used on me, and cannot be used again on anyone else. Those did not come cheaply. Each of the four roots took more than one tool to clean it out that I do not beleive can be used again. Probably a dozen or a dozen and a half were used? But, I do not know exactly.

Consider the several X-rays that had to be taken to see if the bottom of the root had been reached and there were four roots. That required an X-ray tech.

Add to that the materials that were used to fill the root canal.

Yes there was the specialiazed butane tourch that was used to heat and sterilize a dental tool used inside my mouth that could not be used again dut to the temperature that it was heated. [Have you ever watched a red-hot piece of metal being inserted into your mouth, and then listen to the sound of burning something, and smell the acrid smoke coming from your mouth? I went through this.]

Folks, I did not pay the bill on this proceedure. But, I would be willing to say that it was worth $1,000.00 and such a charge would have been reasonable.

NOTE: In 45 minutes I return to the dental chair to continue with another 2-hour session of working on that tooth. That will not be the end. More is scheduled for later times.

[Bravus]

/me sends hugs to Gregory

[Nicodema]

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...spending a lot of time with open sinners, expecially of those professing to be "a brother" could neturalize our own walk with God to some degree

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Well if this is the case and this is really how some on here feel, they have just made a perfect case for making a swift and hasty exit from this community, because it is full of sinners and everyone here professes to be "a brother" (or sister).

I am not ... NOT ... NOT going to sit around here worrying about who is judging me which way. I have my own agenda: to get to know God, to learn His will and His way, to experience a changed life and changed heart in Christ. Whatever my sins are, I'm not going to sit around angsting over whether they disqualify me in this person's eyes or that one's. I don't accept judgment from any man, period. I'm only concerned about what Christ thinks of me, whether I'm right with Him, accepted of Him.

Those looking to find convenient excuses to write me off, dismiss me as a person, etc. because I am a "sinner" will find plenty. I am not perfect. My character still needs TONS of work by God before it's even remotely like an average Christian, let alone like anything God must envision for me. But those looking for a brother (sister) need look no further, if they look with the eyes of love that come from Jesus Christ.

Your* choice -- but I don't want to hear about it. If my company is deemed dangerous to your spiritual health, feel free to remove yourself from it. It probably would serve MINE best if you did.

(* - "you" and "your" meaning anyone reading whom the shoe fits)

[Bravus]

As I understand it, the "by beholding we become changed" text applies to beholding Jesus and becoming more like Him, not to beholding those around us. My point here, all along, is that if we look at those around us, no matter how pure, we will be changed for the worst, because all humans are sinners. It's only by looking to Jesus that we grow.

(or, to put it another way, if we separate ourselves from sinners, then we have to separate ourselves from everyone - so good luck in your hermits' caves, guys!)

And Nico, by that same token, no-one here or anyone else has any right to separate the sheep from the goats or the wheat from the tares - that's His job. The only job we're called to do is look at Him and love each other. End of story.

[Guest]

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Gregory Matthews said:

I had a root canal a few weeks back. It took four (4) hours, and over a two day period. Consider that was four hours of the time of the dentist and also of a dental assistant.

Now also consider the useage of one time dental tools that were used on me, and cannot be used again on anyone else. Those did not come cheaply. Each of the four roots took more than one tool to clean it out that I do not beleive can be used again. Probably a dozen or a dozen and a half were used? But, I do not know exactly.

Consider the several X-rays that had to be taken to see if the bottom of the root had been reached and there were four roots. That required an X-ray tech.

Add to that the materials that were used to fill the root canal.

Yes there was the specialiazed butane tourch that was used to heat and sterilize a dental tool used inside my mouth that could not be used again dut to the temperature that it was heated. [Have you ever watched a red-hot piece of metal being inserted into your mouth, and then listen to the sound of burning something, and smell the acrid smoke coming from your mouth? I went through this.]

Folks, I did not pay the bill on this proceedure. But, I would be willing to say that it was worth $1,000.00 and such a charge would have been reasonable.

NOTE: In 45 minutes I return to the dental chair to continue with another 2-hour session of working on that tooth. That will not be the end. More is scheduled for later times.

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Well Gregory I can only speak from experence, my last root canal from start to finish was about an hour with the doctor by my chair less than 30 min. But my point taken of them being extortioners to demand high prices doesn't necessarly come from an individual doctor. It's their union thugs bosses that are telling them to charge such & such. In exchange they are PROTECTED by these union thugs to not let anyone not of their club moonlight into their work zone. I have a ND friend that was on a 75 ft mission boat [self supporting] for years & years that did all sort of dental work with no degree, even making dentures without one day of schooling. Just recently someone on the west coast need all their teeth pulled and was low on funds, not having the $1200.00 so my friend was called to come pull the teeth at no charge. Just pay for 2 round trip plane tickets which saved the person about half.

I tell this to let you know Gregory that there are more pebbles on the beach than you may be aware of.

[Guest]

Bravus with you telling Nico "End of story" reminded me of once being out on the ocean for days leaning against the outside rail reading a book when a friend walked up. He saw the book I was reading and said to me "Ed did you know that that book you are reading has TWO endings?" I said no I didn't know that thumbing threw the pages. He took the book out of my hand and turned to the back page and pointed to the last pargaraph to the words in bold print "The end". He said that is ONE end, and here is the OTHER end of that book throwing it out in the ocean.

Now if you look at 1 Cor. 10:11 you will see that "upon whom the ends of the world are come", the end has a "S" on it for a very good reason. Remind me to tell you why the bible supplied the "s" & why it is there someday when end time events is considered.

[Guest]

I have yet to locate one statement from the Lord that counsels me to remain rubbing shoulders with open sinners, error and corruption, I can only find the opposite!!!

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“Here and there an individual member of a family is true to the convictions of his conscience, and is compelled to stand alone in his family or in the church to which he belongs, and is finally compelled, because of the course of those with whom he associates, to separate himself from their companionship. The line of demarkation is made distinct. One stands upon the word of God, the others upon the traditions and sayings of men. {RH, July 24, 1894 par. 3}

[Guest]

I think of those two young men up in Washington state a few years ago that were not allowed access to SDA pulpits so they gathered people together in grange halls and Sunday keeping churches on Sabbath. Yes they were kicked out the doors of their mother church, but they crawled right back in the window when the money issue was settled, and this time given the pulpit. Strange inflatuation!!

[Stan]

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Ed White said:

I have yet to locate one statement from the Lord that counsels me to remain rubbing shoulders with open sinners, error and corruption, I can only find the opposite!!!

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If you do not take the gospel to them who will?? Rocks? Stones?? Trees??? Angels???? Did Jesus seperate himself?

[wicklunds]

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Ed White said:

Well Gregory I can only speak from experence, my last root canal from start to finish was about an hour with the doctor by my chair less than 30 min. But my point taken of them being extortioners to demand high prices doesn't necessarly come from an individual doctor. It's their union thugs bosses that are telling them to charge such & such. In exchange they are PROTECTED by these union thugs to not let anyone not of their club moonlight into their work zone. I have a ND friend that was on a 75 ft mission boat [self supporting] for years & years that did all sort of dental work with no degree, even making dentures without one day of schooling. Just recently someone on the west coast need all their teeth pulled and was low on funds, not having the $1200.00 so my friend was called to come pull the teeth at no charge. Just pay for 2 round trip plane tickets which saved the person about half.

I tell this to let you know Gregory that there are more pebbles on the beach than you may be aware of.

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Ed, I used to be a dental assistant (5+yrs.) and this business of getting a big boys club of competing businesses (dental practices in this case) to band together is destroying both free enterprise and fair hiring and firing practices. It has always been that the dental assisting field was dominated by females. Imagine a big guy trying to find work as a dental assistant in a field where the offices are made for compact, females and the dentists, who are mostly males, have ultimate authority over hiring. There arent many opportunities where a male dental assistant could fit into these predominantly female office. And once you are hired well, thats another story all together. So I have chosen to not pursue that line of work any more. The Lord will find something else that will glorify His name. Incidentally, the ADA also gets money from all the dental assistants in America (in participating states) because they force them to stay "certified" in dental radiology and other areas. Not to say this is bad, but I would question both the necessity and charging of fees for this.

Maybe God can use my skills in the missionary field like your dentist friend.

Dennis

[Guest]

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Stan Jensen said:

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Ed White said:

I have yet to locate one statement from the Lord that counsels me to remain rubbing shoulders with open sinners, error and corruption, I can only find the opposite!!!

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If you do not take the gospel to them who will?? Rocks? Stones?? Trees??? Angels???? Did Jesus seperate himself?

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Well Stan maybe your fingres are more nimble than mine and you can find that missing link from inspired counsel for a believer to remain among open sinners, it is beyond my reach. I think if you had read one of my opening positions of "only remaining among sinners as long as you can do them any good" then what seem odscure isn't questionable all. Oh to have the heavenly tack & timing of the Master, He knew exactly when to depart the temple "never to return". While you are searching for this missing link plug in a few of these words "There is constant communication between earth & heaven to those who are walking in the light", maybe those waling in the light have heard the angel say, "they are joined to their idols, leave them alone".

[Gerr]

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Ed White said:

I have yet to locate one statement from the Lord that counsels me to remain rubbing shoulders with open sinners, error and corruption, I can only find the opposite!!!

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The separation of the wheat from the tares takes place during the harvest, the sheep from the goat takes place

at His coming, the foolish from the wise virgins at the arrival of the Bridegroom.

Gerry

[Guest]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Ed White said:

I have yet to locate one statement from the Lord that counsels me to remain rubbing shoulders with open sinners, error and corruption, I can only find the opposite!!!

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The separation of the wheat from the tares takes place during the harvest, the sheep from the goat takes place

at His coming, the foolish from the wise virgins at the arrival of the Bridegroom.

Gerry

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Gerry I am fully aware of the study guides of where you are quoting from, but my appetite is not satsified by a thus sayeth a man or a church, but by pure words that can be documented.

"Before the destruction of Sodom, God sent a message to Lot, "Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed." The same voice of warning was heard by the disciples of Christ before the destruction of Jerusalem: "When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains." Luke 21:20, 21. They must not tarry to secure anything from their possessions, but must make the most of the opportunity to escape. {PP 166.3}

There was a coming out, a decided separation from the wicked, an escape for life. So it was in the days of Noah; so with Lot; so with the disciples prior to the destruction of Jerusalem; and so it will be in the last days. Again the voice of God is heard in a message of warning, bidding His people separate themselves from the prevailing iniquity.

167

{PP 166.4}

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"and so it will be in the last days" WHAT??? "a decided separation from the wicked, an escape for life".

[Gerr]

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Ed White said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Ed White said:

I have yet to locate one statement from the Lord that counsels me to remain rubbing shoulders with open sinners, error and corruption, I can only find the opposite!!!

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The separation of the wheat from the tares takes place during the harvest, the sheep from the goat takes place

at His coming, the foolish from the wise virgins at the arrival of the Bridegroom.

Gerry

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Gerry I am fully aware of the study guides of where you are quoting from, but my appetite is not satsified by a thus sayeth a man or a church, but by pure words that can be documented.

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[:"blue"]What study guide are you talking about, Ed? Everything I mentioned is from the Bible, not from some study guide, a man, or a church! If you want to separate yourself physically, be my guest. But let me remind you that salt is not any good in a bottle.[/]

Gerry

[LifeHiscost]

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is there ever a time on the horizon when separation from sinners also will be required?

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[:"red"] "He replied to them, An enemy has done this. The servants said to him, Then do you want us to go and weed them out?

But he said, No, lest in gathering the wild wheat (weeds resembling wheat), you root up the [true] wheat along with it.

Let them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will say to the reapers, Gather the darnel first and bind it in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my granary." [/] Matt 13:28-30 AMP

I would suggest the reapers will make that decision. And it is doubtful that men are wise enough to be among the reapers.

Keep the faith!

[Guest]

"Life" do you have a dictionary with the word "BEFORE" in it? If so consided the official meaning as you ponder these words. If you fail to realize this word usage, you could be caught in a snare and be among those that have not seperated "themselves from those churches in which the love of this world has supplanted love for God and His word".

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"Before the final visitation of God's judgments upon the earth there will be among the people of the Lord such a revival of primitive godliness as has not been witnessed since apostolic times. The Spirit and power of God will be poured out upon His children. At that time many will separate themselves from those churches in which the love of this world has supplanted love for God and His word. Many, both of ministers and people, will gladly accept those great truths which God has caused to be proclaimed at this time to prepare a people for the Lord's second coming. The enemy of souls desires to hinder this work; and before the time for such a movement shall come, he will endeavor to prevent it by introducing a counterfeit. In those churches which he can bring under his deceptive power he will make it appear that God's special blessing is poured out; there will be manifest what is thought to be great religious interest. Multitudes will exult that God is working marvelously for them, when the work is that of another spirit. Under a religious guise, Satan will seek to extend his influence over the Christian world. {Mar 168.2}

Young men and women will be lifted up, and will regard themselves as wonderfully favored, called to do some great thing. There will be conversions many, after a peculiar order, but they will not bear the divine signature. Immorality will come in, and extravagance, and many will make shipwreck of faith. {Mar 168.3}

[Nicodema]

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Before the final visitation of God's judgments upon the earth there will be among the people of the Lord such a revival of primitive godliness as has not been witnessed since apostolic times. The Spirit and power of God will be poured out upon His children. At that time many will

separate themselves from those [:"red"]churches[/] in which the love of this world has supplanted love for God and His word.

Many, both of ministers and people, will gladly accept those great truths which God has caused to be proclaimed at this time to prepare a people for the Lord's second coming.

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This passage states that people will separate themselves from institutions, not from other people. They will separate from those institutions which are teaching non-Biblical things and unite with those who support what the Bible teaches. That does not mean they will cease to reach out to others.