benherndon Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 Quote: Ron, you wrote this: Ben, you're deluding yourself if you think all of your 20 translations agree it is the Law of Moses. Only the less literal ones say that it is the law of Moses. Some say it is "Jewish law" which is not the same as the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is God's law whereas Jewish law would be all the extra man-made commandments that the rabbis added, some of which built barriers between Jews and Gentiles. The rest of your translations use terms that are ambiguous -- they could refer to God's law or to man-made laws. >>>You are the one mistaken, Ron. The Jewish Law IS the Law of Moses. It is NOT some nebulous invisible or otherwise law the content of which is mysterious to us. Paul sets up the context as he approaches verse 15 in Eph 2. He identifies who is 'uncircumcized' represents and he identifies who 'circumcised' represents. Then he comes right out and says what causes the separation. Then he says Christ abolished it. Why can't you see this?---is it because you don't want to?---Here it is again from the actual Greek/English literal word for word translation: Beginning in Eph 2:11---"Wherefore remember that ye once the nations in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision [this refers to the gentiles]by that called circumcision in the flesh made by hand [this refers to the Jews]--that ye were at that time apart from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers frmo the covenants of promise, hope not, having, and without God in the world; but now in Christ Jesus, you who were once afar off near are become by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, wo made both one, adn the middle wall of the fence broke down, he enmity in his flesh, the law of commandments and decrees having annulled, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace; and might reconcile both in the one body to God through the cross, having slain the enmity by it; and having come he announced the glad tidings---peace to you who were afar off and to those near...." Interlinear Greek/English New Testament Eph 2:11-16(emphasis mine, of course.) Now, Ron, just where does the Greek translated into English by knowledgeable people say anything about 'man made' rules. All this is something cooked up to evade the truth from the Bible. I am surprised at you and others like you who try to hide from the plain words here---"law of commandments and decrees having annulled"--after identifying the context so clearly as to the points he is speaking to as he writes this message to the Ephesians. This is directly from the Greek---word for word translation. Putting it in common English to teach us with various translators/interpreters have used various terms all referring to exactl the same thing, to wit: The Law of Moses!! Here is another English translation from the most highly respected NASB--same verses as above---Eph 2:11-18 "Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision" which is performed in the flesh by human hands---remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in HIs flesh the enmity which is the Law of Commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself he might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace." Eph 2:11-15 NASB Ron, the 'Jewish Law' IS the Law of Moses!! IF it is not, then, prove it is not and show me the "Jewish Law" that is different from the Law of Moses! Your problem must be that you are accepting extraBibilical information over the Bible! That, my friend is an egregious spiritual mistake! Don't do that, please! I've nothing more to point out other than that Paul says extremely plainly that Christ abolished the Law of Moses which separated the Jews from the Gentiles and which had fostered God's preference for the Jewish people over the gentiles. That had created enmity. By abolishing that Law which caused the barrier, the wall of separation, so to speak, between them, He created one class of people for Himself---which was the Jews who believed in Him right along with the gentiles that believed in Him. Understand? Don't fight it because of your what is apparently your current preferred 'authority'---Let the Bible itself tell you what it means. The reference source of all authority for the existence of Christianity resides in the Bible alone! Christians need to accept and know that. Ben Quote
Ron Amnsn Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 Quote: benherndon said: Note that even this prime SDA Bible teacher/authority at least referred to misapplication of the Scriptures. . So he surely must have been referring to the Scriptures and not some manmade decrees separate from the Scriptures. Yes, Blanco does say that the "hatred that separated us" was caused by something related to the Scriptures. But he says it's the misapplication of the Scriptures, not the Scriptures themselves. What form do you think the misapplications took in order to cause "hatered that separated us"? You have already mentioned the man-made wall in the Temple courts and the man-made decree prohibiting gentiles from entering beyond that wall. Neither of those are prescribed in Scripture-- they would be man-made misapplications of Scripture. Rather than speaking of misapplications of Scripture being applied to Gentiles, Blanco could be speaking of misapplications of Scripture which were applied to Jews. If the Jews were burdened under loads of man-made misapplications of Scripture (which they were), the Gentiles would have been repulsed by the warped and loathsome way in which the Jews were misapplying God's law. It is commonly assumed that obedience to the Law of Moses is what caused the enmity between Jews and Gentiles. However, according to Scripture disobedience to the Torah causes Gentiles to hate the Jews: Among the curses for disobeying the Law is this: "You shall become a horror, a proverb, and a taunt among all the people where the Lord drives you." (Deut 28:37) 'He who says to the wicked, “You are righteous,” Peoples will curse him, nations will abhor him;' (Prov 24:23) "and I will make them a terror to all the kingdoms of the earth, to be a curse and a horror and a hissing, and a reproach among all the nations where I have driven them, because they have not listened to My words,’ declares the Lord" (Jer 29:18-19) Quote: Most of the other 20 English translations I have use clear reference to the commandments with its regulations one way or another. What manmade decrees were you referring to. I am refering to the man-made traditional Jewish regulations such as those Jesus spoke of in Mark 7 and Luke 11: [:"brown"]However they worship Me in vain, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, the dippings of pots and cups. And many other such things you do. And He said to them, Do you do well to set aside the commandment of God, so that you may keep your own tradition? For Moses said, "Honor your father and your mother." And, "Whoever curses father or mother, let him die the death." But you say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, Corban! (that is, A gift to God, whatever you may profit by me) and you no longer allow him to do anything toward his father or mother, making the Word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have delivered. And you do many such things. (Mark 7:7-13) "And He said, Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens grievous to be carried, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers." (Luke 11:46) [/] In Acts 10 Peter cites a man-made Jewish law pertaining specifically to Gentile-Jewish relations (a law which is not found the Law of Moses): [:"blue"]And he said to them, You know that it is an unlawful thing for a man, a Jew to keep company with or to come near to one of another nation. But God has shown me not to call any man common or unclean. (Acts 10:28) [/] This is similar to the traditional Jewish requirement (man-made, not in Torah) that Peter himself reverted to in Galatians 2:11-14 for which Paul rebuked him: [:"blue"]But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was to be blamed. For before some came from James, he ate with the nations. But when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those of the circumcision. [/] In Acts 15:10 Peter again to refers to this class of man-made Jewish laws: [:"blue"]"Now therefore why do you tempt God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples, a yoke which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"[/] Many Christians mistakenly assume that Peter was refering to the Law of Moses, but that would be impossible, for later in Acts it tells us that in the same congregation the Jewish believers were all zealous for the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20). If Peter had told that congregation that the Law of Moses was an unbearable burden, everyone would have known he was lying and would have turned against him zealously. Quote: If nobody knew what Paul would be talking about it would have been senseless for him to refer to it. I think you misread what I wrote. The original readers of Paul's letter understood exactly what he meant because they were familiar with both the Old Testament and also with the man-made regulations of their day that caused friction between Jews and Gentiles. Today Christians make faulty assumptions about what Paul wrote because they neither know the Old Testament laws nor the man-made laws that Paul referred to. Quote: If you interpret it differently than 99% of other Christians I would suggest the burden of proof is yours. Ben, if you believe that truth is determined by popularity, then what proof could I offer that you would accept? Your belief system has the momentum of many centuries of traditional Christianity's misinterpretation of Scripture. What are the chances that I could get you to stop and look at what the Scriptures actually teach regarding God's good law? Perhaps you should start with Psalms 119. Quote: Amplified Bible: "By abolishing in His own [crucified]flesh the enmity caused by the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He anulled]:..." Eph 2:15 Abolished? 'caused by'? 'the Law'?---Surely you can see this. If not, then, we are wasting time. This translation actually says that it was the enmity that was abolished, not the law that was abolished. The phrase "which He annulled" is shown in brackets in the Amplified Bible. According to the Introduction in the Amplified Bible, brackets contain "justified clarifying words or comments not actually expressed in the immediate original text." (emphasis mine) So, the translators admit that the original text does not actually say that Jesus annulled "the Law with its decrees and ordinances". By adding that extra phrase in brackets, the translators have acknowledged that what Paul actually wrote in the original text does not clearly teach what the translators (and you) want it to say. Perhaps if these translators weren't so intent on adding their own slant to what Paul wrote, they might have realized that it wasn't the Law of Moses that caused the enmity between Jews and Gentiles. If you think that Jesus abolished the Law of Moses, then you are disobeying a direct command that Jesus gave his followers. Jesus said, "[:"brown"]Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets;"[/] (Matt. 5:17) Quote
benherndon Posted July 14, 2005 Posted July 14, 2005 We are not getting anywhere, Ron. WE are just arguing. You are teaching the Law. You know what the NT says about 'teachers of the law'? Well go read it. I am not teaching the law of Moses because it is not applicable to the believing Christian unless he departs from respecting God and man, both. The first and greatest commandment is to love and respect and worship God. The next one on the same level as the first in that the second it like unto it---love, and respect all other people like you do yourself. Follow those and you don't have to follow anything else. Abandon those and, then, the Law of Moses applies to you. Read the NT all alone without reading any other spiritual 'authority'. Read the NT through at least twice every year. In fact read it 4 times a year for a couple of years and then at least twice a year until you have read it through all by itself cover to cover so much you understand it. You will never understand the NT teachings unless you limit your 'authority' to it alone. If you try to share its authority with 'the writings' or some other Biblical authority you will never get the NT straight. Sorry--but what you are posting is so wrong on so many points I can't begin to straighten you out. When I try to teach you differently from what you already think, you argue with it before examining it with full intellectual honesty---like as if you are afraid of finding the full truth. Soooo------I'm not going to argue with you anymore. If you want to find out what most Christians think about a certain subject of some sort and if anybody can help you, find them and listen to what they say and THEN prayerfully study the NT about the subject. If you go elsewhere for any guidance, you are searching vainly. The Bible is its own interpreter. The NT has authority over the OT concerning Christianity. The OT does not have authority over the NT concerning Christianity. IN a way of thinking consisent with OT and NT teaching, the OT religion got itself into such a mess that God couldn't make it work for His people or the others on earth. So He sent His Son and told us all, "This is my beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased. LISTEN TO HIM!" What Jesus says is considerably different from what the OT religion said. So, "listen to Him". Good 'listening' on me, you, and all others too! Ben Quote
Ron Amnsn Posted July 15, 2005 Posted July 15, 2005 Sorry I'm taking so long to respond, Ben. I'm still responding to messages you posted several days ago. Quote: Quote: Ron asked : Was that "separation" or antagonism caused by God's law? If so, please quote the relevant laws from the books of Moses showing that the law required separation or antagonism between Jews and Gentiles. benherndon said: >>>I've shown all this previously. God chose the Israelites and He did not choose other nations. In the human sphere specially exclusion sets up antagonism. Didn't God chose the Israelites long before there was a Law of Moses? How can the Law of Moses be responsible for the antagonism that resulted from God's special choosing of Israel, when the special choosing of Israel preceeded the Sinai by several generations? God specifically chose Abraham and his descendants (and included in the covenant sign all the Gentile menservants in Abraham's household). God chose Isaac, but not Ishmael. God chose Jacob, but not Esau. God rescued the Israelites from Egyptian slavery before Moses wrote down the Law at Sinai. There was already antagonism between those who were chosen and those who were not chosen long before Moses wrote down the Law. In Romans 9-11 Paul explains that the sovereign choosing of God is still valid. And that God has not "un"chosen Israel as a result of Christ's work. (Rom 11:28-29) Gentiles who want to become part of God's kingdom are "grafted in" to Israel, as they have been throughout the history of Israel (Examples include the "mixed multitude" of Gentiles who left Egypt with Israel and who were included completely in the covenant with Israel at Sinai, Rahab and her family from Jericho, Ruth the Moabite, and Zelek the Ammonite and Uriah the Hittite who were among David's mighty men). How would abolishing the Law of Moses end the antagonism that was caused instead by Israel's special status with God? On the other hand, if the in-filling of the Holy Spirit caused the Gentiles to want to obey the Law of Moses (with whole-hearted obedience based on faith), then the Gentiles would naturally be drawn toward Israelites who were also obeying the Law of Moses (stripped of all the extra man-made regulations that had been added by the rabbis) and the antagonism would disappear. Ezekiel foretold this Spirit-enabled obedience, "[:"blue"]And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.[/]" (Ezek 11:19-20) This is what the Scriptures teach about being filled with the Spirit, so when Paul tells the Ephesians to be "filled with the Spirit" (Eph 5:18), this genuine obedience to God's law was what he was expecting. Quote: You mention that in the Torah the gentile who is allowed to convert to Judaism will be treated as being born into it. Actually, I said that was in the Talmud, which is Jewish law that is different from the Torah. The Talmud contains what the Jews call "oral law". It is the commentary and rulings of Jewish sages and rabbis that had been added to the Torah and handed down orally, and eventually were written down when the Jews were dispersed after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Quote: God chose the Jews as a group and He did not choose anybody else as a group! All Torah, same as the Pentateuch contained some 620 laws. Now I'll show you those laws applied only to the Israelites as a group and it did not include the gentiles as a group. There were exceptions. Exceptions do not make the 'rule'! "Now if you will obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession." Ex 19 "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery." Ex 20 Who else did He bring out of Egyptian slavery? He also brought out the "mixed multitude" of Gentiles. (Exodus 12:38 and Numbers 11:4) Quote: "These are the laws you are to set before them:.."Ex 21 Was he talking about the Canaananites? No, but the "them" included the "mixed multitude" of Gentiles that came out of Egypt with the Israelites. Quote: "You are to be my holy people." Ex 22 Peter, quoting from the Law of Moses, also tells the Gentiles to be holy. "[:"blue"]but according to the Holy One who has called you, you also become holy in all conduct, because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy.[/]" (1Peter 1:15-16) Peter was quoting from Lev. 11:44, Lev 19:2 & Lev 20:7 where the Law of Moses explains what the Israelites were to do in order to be holy. Quote: "..I will be an enemy of your enemies....the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites...Hivites...Philistines...."Ex 23 These were all gentiles. From among these nations the family of Rahab the Harlot was adopted into Israel, because she did not act as an enemy. (Heb 11:31) Quote: "I will meet with you and give you all my commands for the Israelites." Ex 25 If God's commands for Israel were for the gentiles He would have said so somewhere. He didn't! That is significant to the mind of normal men and women.' You have asserted, "If God's commands for Israel were for the gentiles He would have said so somewhere." Is this a principle based on Scripture, or it merely an assumption? When Jesus was illustrating what the Kingdom of God is like, He told the parable of the servants who were given 10, 5, and 1 talents (Matt 25:14-30). The unworthy servant in the parpable made an assumption very similar to the one you have made above. The servant with one talent assumed that if the Master had wanted him to do something with the talent the Master would have said so somewhere. Did the Master commend the servant for acting on that assumption? No. The Master expected the servant to put into practice what the servant knew from watching how the Master had dealt with people in the past. Actually, The Law of Moses does contain a command requiring the Israelites to teach the the Law of Moses to Gentiles. "[:"blue"]Then Moses commanded them: "At the end of every seven years, in the year for canceling debts, during the Feast of Tabernacles, when all Israel comes to appear before the Lord your God at the place he will choose, you shall read this law before them in their hearing. Assemble the people—men, women and children, and the aliens living in your towns—so they can listen and learn to fear the Lord your God and follow carefully all the words of this law. Their children, who do not know this law, must hear it and learn to fear the Lord your God as long as you live in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess.[/]" (Deut 31:10-13 NIV) Notice that all the Gentiles associated with Israel were supposed to learn the law. The New Testament teaches that Christians are now associated with Israel. Jesus also commanded his disciples to teach the Gentiles that it was important to follow the Law. "[:"brown"]Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.[/]" (Matt 28:19-20 NIV) Notice that Jesus did not specify a different curriculum for Gentiles and Jews. Everybody was to learn the same thing. One of the commands that was to be taught to everyone is this: "[:"brown"]Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.[/] (Matt 5:17-19 NIV) Notice that Jesus says "anyone" and "whoever", which includes Gentiles, Jesus does not say "this is only for Jews". So Jesus sent his disciples into all the world to teach both Jews and Gentiles that whoever practices and teaches the commands of the Law will be called great in the kingdom of Heaven. Quote: "This is to be a lasting ordinance among the Israelites for the generations to come." Ex 27 Have you ever heard Christians say that they are part of "Spiritual" Israel? Wouldn't that make them Israelites? Nowhere does the New Testament speak of a "Spiritual" Israel that is separate from the Israelites. Even in the chapter where this discussion started, the apostle Paul says that the Gentile believers were once aliens from Israel, but now have become part of it (Eph 2:12,19). Quote: "[the Sabbath]will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever..."Ex 31 ?As sign between "Me" and the gentiles?---I don't think so! Do you? Is there anything in this passage that says the Sabbath is exclusively for the Israelites? This passage ties the Sabbath to Creation week, which certainly wasn't exclusively for the Israelites. Is there any verse in Scripture that says the Sabbath is exclusively for the Israelites? There are certainly verses that say it is not exclusively for Israel. Isaiah 56:1-7 specifically includes Gentiles in Sabbathkeeping, and Jesus quoted those same verses from Isaiah when He proclaimed that the Temple would "be called a house of prayer for all nations". If the Sabbath was made for mankind as Jesus said (Mark 2:27), then the Sabbath would have naturally become a sign marking any of the descendants of Adam who worshipped God. Quote: [Even though the Israelites became corrupt and 'turned away from Him" He still called them His people.---read about it in Ex 32.] "What else will distinguish me[Moses] and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?"Ex 33 It was God's own Presense that would distinguish His people. (verse 15) Quote: In the law of the sin offering, Lev 4, read this:"If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally..." -- Is He speaking a law for the gentiles? The mixed multitude (Gentiles) were part of the whole Israelite community. And according to Paul, so are New Testament believers. (Eph 2 & Rom 11) Quote: "All native-born Israelites are to live in booths so your descendants will know that I had the Israelites live in booths when I brought them out of Egypt. I am the Lord your god."Lev 23 Zechariah 14 says that all Gentiles will be required to go up to Jerusalem for this Feast of Tabernacles (booths) when the Lord himself reigns in Jerusalem. Remember that Tabernatcles is the same Feast where the Gentiles were to be taught to follow the Law of Moses. (Deut 31:10ff) Quote: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations [gentiles]around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become you property and can them them slaves for life. but you must not rule over your fellow Israeltes ruthlessly."Lev 25. Do you see the contrast God set up between the Israelites and the gentiles living with or near them? Yes, the Law of Moses does recognize the difference between Israelites and Gentiles. Even as Gentiles, these slaves came under the jurisdiction of the Law of Moses. The Sabbath commandmant, which you say was only for the Israelites, specifically provides rest for slaves and Gentiles within Israel. Quote: "These are the commands he Lord gave Moses on Mount Sinai FOR the Israelites." Lev 27 And included within the Israelites was the mixed multitude of Gentiles who came out of Egypt with them. Quote: "The Lord made this covenant not with our fathers, but with us, all of us who are alive with us here today." Deut 5:3 The descendants of the mixed multitude Gentiles were standing there that day as full partners in the covenant. Quote: "I will take you as my own people, and I will be your God." Ex 6:7 Yes. Even before the Law was given at Sinai. Quote: "I will make a distinction between my people and your people." Ex 8:23 Yes, the distinction was that the rest of the plagues that fell on Egypt, did not fall on the land of Goshen. This was more than two months before the Law was given at Sinai. Quote: "And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and lawas as this body of laws I am setting before you today?" Deut 4 Absolutely. There wasn't a nation that had as good a constitution as the Israelites had in the Law of Moses. And what Gentile would be so silly as to reject such righteous decrees and laws? Quote: "Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and taht the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outsretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath Day?" Did God bring any gentiles out of Egypt? Yes, there was a multitude from many nations that left Egypt with the Israelites. (Exodus 12:38) However, I think your comment misses the point of the verse you quoted. Observance of the Sabbath commandment included rest for all slaves within Israel (see Deut 5:14 -- the phrase immediately preceeding the verse you quoted). The Israelites are being reminded that they themselves were once slaves, so they should be especially empathetic about giving their own slaves the Sabbath rest. Quote: "But you stay here with me so that I may give you all the commands, decrees and laws you are to teach thtem to follow in the land I am givnig them to possess." Deut 5 Does that sound like God's laws for the Israelites also were for the gentiles of the world? God was speaking to Moses. God didn't commission Moses to go teach all nations and make disciples of them. Moses had his hands full just getting the Israelites trained. It was Jesus who later commissioned the disciples to go teach all nations and make disiples of them. Quote: "Yet the Lord set his affection on your forefathrs and lovd them, and he chose you, their descendants, above all the nations, as it is today." Deut 10 Indeed! And that happened quite a few generations before the Law was given at Sinai. Quote: "Remember that you weer slaves in Egypt and the Lord your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today. 16 BUT (!) if your servant (usually a gentile)says to you,"I do not want to leave you," because he loves you and and your family and it well off with you,17 then take an awl and push it through his ear lobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life." Deut 15 ---see the contrast between the Jew and the gentile? This particular instruction was specifically regarding slaves who were Israelites (not Gentiles) who were to be given their freedom after six years, unless they chose to stay for life. It does recognize the difference between an Israelite and a Gentile. It also shows how well the Israelites were expected to treat their slaves. Quote: "However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything taht breathes. Completely destroy them---the Hittities, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites--as the Lord your God has commanded you." Deut 20 It's true. God didn't send the Israelites in as evangelists to convert these Gentile nations. These nations were descended from Noah, who had been righteous, but these nations had become so wicked (Gen 15:16) that God had chosen to destroy them, using a different method than He had used to destroy Sodom and Gamorah 400 years earlier. Quote: And how do you like this one showing the contrast between the Israelites and the gentiles? "When you go to war against your enemies...If you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her you may take her as your wife." Deut 21 This is consistent with God choosing Israel and 'her' laws applicable to her and to gentiles who live among the Israelites. Notice that there is always a contrast between the Israelites and the gentiles. I noticed that God made specific provision for making these Gentile wives a part of Israel. Once the Gentile woman married the Israelite man, didn't she become subject to all the Laws of Moses? Quote: "And the Lord has declared thsi day that you are his people, his treasured possession as he promised, and that you are to keep all his commands." Deut 26 If Christians now consider themselves to be God's people, shouldn't they also keep all his commands? Jesus did. Paul claimed that he did too. Paul taught the Gentiles believers to follow his own example and the example of Jesus. Quote: These are from the Torah. There are many others from the remainder of the Bible, OT and NT that support the fact that The Law of Moses was for the Israelites only unless the gentile chose to become like a Jew. I'd be interested in seeing those if you have time. Quote: In Christs time this contention existed as Paul says. Sooo, how can you doubt there was a 'wall' of separation between the Jew and the Gentile compared allegorically in Eph 2 like the granite wall in the Temple of those days which had been erected to keep the gentile 'separated' from the Jew that was not so restrained. I don't doubt that there was a wall of separation which, like the wall in the Temple, was created by man-made decrees rather than by the Law of Moses. Quote: Therefore, Paul writes that the Law of Moses, the commandments with their regulations were 'abolished' by His flesh making both gentile and Jew into equal persons before the Lord. You write that so plainly. But I can't help but wonder why Paul didn't write it as plainly if he actually meant to say the same thing as you say. Paul didn't say "Law of Moses" although he easily could have, if that had been what he meant. Instead he used the word "dogmasin" which is not used in Scripture to refer to the Law of Moses. Quote: Finally, as I've shown before, read Ps 147 and you will find that Psalm saying that only Israel received the Law and decrees---and that Israel is the only nation that did. Interesting. Psalms 147 does say that God gave the Law to Israel as a nation. But it doesn't say that God intended for Israel to keep it only for herself. In fact, the Psalm indicates that Israel was abundantly blessed because it has received the Law, and the other nations are poorer because they don't have it. So the the Law is something desireable that we should want. Ben, you still haven't shown that the Law of Moses caused animosity between Jews and Gentiles. What you showed was that God's special choosing of Israel caused animosity that started well before the Law was given at Sinai. Thus you haven't shown that abolishing the Law of Moses would cancel the animosity spoken of in Eph 2:14-15. Since Paul himself compares that animosity to a man-made wall not prescribed in the Law of Moses, it is doubtful that he intended say that it was caused by the Law of Moses, or that it could be cured by abolishing the Law of Moses. And you failed to show that God only intended the Law to be for Israel. Starting from when Israel left Egypt there were Gentiles included in the covenant with Israel. And Gentiles were adopted into Israel down through the centuries. The Law of Moses itself contains a command to teach the Law to Gentiles who are associated with Israel. Since the New Testament teaches that Gentile followers of Jesus become associated with Israel too, Christians would also be expected to learn to follow the Laws of Moses. Quote
benherndon Posted July 15, 2005 Posted July 15, 2005 Quote: Why can't you see this?---is it because you don't want to?---Here it is again from the actual Greek/English literal word for word translation: Beginning in Eph 2:11---"Wherefore remember that ye once the nations in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision [this refers to the gentiles]by that called circumcision in the flesh made by hand [this refers to the Jews]--that ye were at that time apart from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers frmo the covenants of promise, hope not, having, and without God in the world; but now in Christ Jesus, you who were once afar off near are become by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who made both one, and the middle wall of the fence broke down, the enmity in his flesh, the law of commandments and decrees having annulled, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace; and might reconcile both in the one body to God through the cross, having slain the enmity by it; and having come he announced the glad tidings---peace to you who were afar off and to those near...." Interlinear Greek/English New Testament Eph 2:11-16(emphasis mine, of course.) Quote: Here is another English translation from the most highly respected NASB--same verses as above---Eph 2:11-18 "Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision" which is performed in the flesh by human hands---remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in HIs flesh the enmity which is the Law of Commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself he might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace." Eph 2:11-15 NASB I've been wracking my brain to see why it is that you cannot grasp what I am seeing. Is it perhaps, that you are not reading the Bible through cover to cover over and over again and that you are continuing to regard what those parts of 'the writings' with strong belief and assent? (That is the usual problem amongst SDAs in my observation.) The gentiles that liked the God of the Israelites in Egypt did go out with them. And aliens living with the Israelites did like them sometimes apparently and joined in with them in their worship of their God. These are exceptions!! They were only a small part of the over-all population of gentiles in the world. Paul is not speaking to the few gentiles that had 'become' Israelites by worshipping the God of the Israelites, following the Laws of Moses, and 'becoming' Jews by interbreeding etc etc---I know all of that and accept it---BUT, you are obfuscating the point Paul is trying to make that the whole world of other people, of whom the Israelites and their gentiles aliens were only a very small part, is by Christ's coming in behalf of all sinners,---the whole world of non-Jews are welcomed into being God's people and, figuratively, children of the Promise to Abraham. (I wonder if you understand the difference between being children of the Abrahamic promise, in comparison to the Old and New Covenants? Is that why we are not seeing things similarly?) I wonder,also, if you are text-proofing "all over" the Bible without getting the story, the contrasting 'picture'---like, are you reading the Bible as if it is a 'dictionary' or a 'reference text' or 'seeing the trees but not the forest'??? Something is wrong, but I don't know what it is for sure----unless it is trying to understand the Bible through the 1844 mind of Sr. White? At any rate, Ron, once again, I cannot teach you. I know what is driving you and I was at one time, even most of my adult life, in the same state of mind that you seem to me to be in. However, I got out of that state of mind and into just exactly what our church founder said---I began, and continued for a long time, to read ONLY the Bible and then I began to understand its message. I don't listen to the wanderings within the minds of people, teachers and preachers, anymore like I used to. I just go to the Bible only and absolutely nothing else. I dont' know Greek or Hebrew and I'm too old to learn it. Soooooo, if the translations we have are not completely correct, then, I will have to suffer the consequences. But, I DO understand English about as well as most people and what I am saying the English translations of the Bible say IS what they are saying. Sorry to be to arrogant as to understand plain English--but that's what I am saying. I can't teach you. So......go do your thing. I tried, Lord knows I tried----but......do your own thing! Good luck! Good 'doing your own thing'! Ben Quote
Ron Amnsn Posted July 17, 2005 Posted July 17, 2005 Quote: benherndon said: New Testament Christians had 'scripture' but it was not in book form and called the New Testament until much later---probably about 600 A.D. according to historians. Christians had what later formally became 'scripture' in the form of the sayings and remembrances of Christ's time, and the letters of Mark, Luke, Paul, Peter, and John. You are correct in saying that the New Testament was not considered 'Scripture' until sometime after Paul wrote his letters. It is evident that Paul and his original readers considered the Old Testament authoritative because Paul quoted from the Old Testament about 95 times in his epistles (130 times if Paul also wrote Hebrews). By contrast, how many times did Paul quote from the New Testament in his epistles? Apparently, the New Testament was either unavailable (because it was not yet written) or it wasn't yet recognized as Scripture. So Paul was talking about the Old Testament when he wrote, "All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work." (Tim 3:15-16) Quote: Paul preached Christ's coming and reconciliation while believers were still sinners. It was preached by him and others that forgiveness and salvation was a Gift which they called Grace. That message is also completely compatible with what the Torah teaches and with obedience to the Law of Moses. Quote: It was written that 'the Law's' authority over the believer was replaced by Christ's Law of loving God and Man. Where exactly was this written (that Christ's Law replaced the Torah)? Didn't Christ give the Law to Israel in the first place? When Jesus was asked which commandment was the greatest or most important, it was a multiple choice question. Jesus didn't create two new commandments. He chose two of the commands from the Law of Moses. "[:"brown"]The most important one,[/]" answered Jesus, "[:"brown"]is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.[/]" (Mark 12:29-31) Jesus quoted these from Deut 6:4-5 and Lev 19:18. In Matthew's account (Matt 22:37-40) Jesus ends with the statement, "[:"brown"]All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.[/]" Many people erroneously interpret this as if Jesus had said, "The Law is replaced by these two commands." But that's not what Jesus said. Some commentators say that these two commands summarize all the Law and the Prophets. That may be true, but then the flip side of the relationship is also true: that the Law and Prophets provide the details for how to love God and how to love our neighbor. The word "hang" that Jesus used to describe the relationship between these greatest commandments and the rest of the Law actually describes a tighter connection between the two: it's like the two greatest commandments are the poles around which the scroll of the Law and Prophets are wrapped. The poles support the scroll, and wherever the poles go the scroll goes too. So if you define the "Law of Christ" as these two greatest commandments that Jesus quoted from the Law of Moses, guess what Jesus said was hanging on (attached to) to those two commandmaents? The rest of the Law and the Prophets. If you look in the Scriptures that Jesus and Paul used (the Old Testamnent) and study to find out what it means to 'love God with all your heart', you will find that loving God is tied directly to obeying the Law of Moses. So of course that's what Jesus was doing when he showed us how to love God with our whole heart. Quote: The Law was a 'burden' and Christ freed us from that burden One of the things that I was surprised to learn when I started studying the Scriptures for myself was that the Scriptures always refer to God's Law as being a good thing, a blessing. I had been taught that the Law was a burden, but I discovered that notion is just an outright falsehood. The scriptures never refer to the Law as being a burden. In Scripture, sin is referred to as a burden, and Jesus freed us from that burden. The man-made regulations, which were added by the Jewish oral law, are also referred to as a burden. And Jesus freed his followers from those as well. Quote: and the state of tentatively forgiven [via the sanctuary rituals\] sins and He did away with our sins permanently so they would never be remembered. He reconciled us to the Father while we were still sinners! Where do you get the idea that in the Old Testament sins were only tentatively forgiven? The promise of the coming Messiah was a sure thing, guaranteed by God's own word. Grace-based forgiveness for sinners is an Old Testament concept. "[:"blue"]I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.[/]" (Isaiah 43:25) Quote
LifeHiscost Posted July 17, 2005 Posted July 17, 2005 Quote: Ron Ammundsen said: Grace-based forgiveness for sinners is an Old Testament **concept**. "[:"blue"]I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.[/]" (Isaiah 43:25) My heart was warmed and my affections for the Savior increased as I read over your post, Ron. As one who believes this Word, [:"red"] "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." [/] Matthew 4:4 KJV ...your words made a personal study of mine unnecessary to reaffirm the reality that God didn't leave a book of advice to lug around in which only one quarter of it was worth holding to the heart. Those words above were spoken by Jesus to the tempter, who made an effort to put in Jesus' mind, confusion about the reality that all of the words of the Father are consistent and true to each other when properly understood. With Jesus, that subterfuge didn't work. Neither will it work with His sheep. [:"red"] "To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out." [/] John 10:3 KJV [:"red"] "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." [/] John 10:16 KJV I just put that other Word in, as I noticed you do not claim belonging to the church. (Christ's body) [:"red"] "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, >>if<< it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." [/] Matthew 24:24 KJV Re: >> << essential to the safety and security of those who put their trust in the Word. [:"red"] "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." [/] 2 Tim 2:15 NKJV I would only suggest one change in your post. Re: ** ** The word "concept" might be more appropriately called "principle". Just one man's opinion. Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Ron Amnsn Posted July 18, 2005 Posted July 18, 2005 Quote: benherndon said: >>>You are the one mistaken, Ron. The Jewish Law IS the Law of Moses. It is NOT some nebulous invisible or otherwise law the content of which is mysterious to us. [...] Ron, the 'Jewish Law' IS the Law of Moses!! IF it is not, then, prove it is not and show me the "Jewish Law" that is different from the Law of Moses! Ben, it is quite possible that I could be mistaken on some points, but if you look into this you will find that history, Scripture, and Judaism all agree that Jewish law, at the the time Paul was writing his epistles, included many things that Moses did not write in the Law of Moses. My understanding is that after the Jews returned from the Babylonian captivity the Jewish rabbis invented "fence laws" to carefully guard the Torah. For example, the Old Testament prohibits carrying a burden on the Sabbath, but doesn't specify exactly what a burden is. So in order to guard against inadvertantly carrying a burden on Sabbath the rabbis ruled that nothing could be carried outdoors. Thus when Jesus told the man, "Rise, take up your bed and walk", the Jews thought Jesus had told the man to desecrate the Sabbath, when in fact the Law of Moses did not prohibit the man from carrying his mat on Sabbath (unless it was a burden). There were many "fence laws" such as these that were part of Jewish law and are sometimes referred to as "oral torah", but they are not part of what was written in the Law of Moses. These man-made laws are not nebulous, invisible, nor mysterious. If you don't believe me, just ask a rabbi or read the Talmud. Quote: I've nothing more to point out other than that Paul says extremely plainly that Christ abolished the Law of Moses which separated the Jews from the Gentiles and which had fostered God's preference for the Jewish people over the gentiles. That had created enmity. By abolishing that Law which caused the barrier, the wall of separation, so to speak, between them, He created one class of people for Himself---which was the Jews who believed in Him right along with the gentiles that believed in Him. The last part of what you say here is true. I agree that the only enmity that was removed was the enmity between the Jewish followers of Jesus and the Gentile followers of Jesus. History has shown that there is still plenty of enmity between Gentiles and Jews who do not follow Jesus. However, the Law of Moses had never created enmity between Jews who believed in the promised Jewish Messiah and Gentiles who believed in the promised Jewish Messiah that had been foretold and prefigured in the Torah and Prophets. According to the Law of Moses and the rest of the Old Testament, there wasn't a barrier to keep those believing Gentiles from joining with the Israelites. In a previous post I listed many Gentiles who did join the Israelites. Abolishing the Law of Moses would not destroy any enmity between believing Jews and believing Gentiles, because in Old Testament times the Law of Moses had never caused enmity between them. In the period of time between the Old Testament and the New Testament, however, the Jews developed the "fence laws" which were designed to protect the Torah. Among those man-made laws were laws separating Jews from Gentiles. The wall built in the Temple courtyard to separate Jews from Gentiles was the result of the "fence laws". Since Paul specifically mentions the wall separating Jews from Gentiles when talking about the laws that were abolished in Ephesians 2:15, it is evident that he is talking about the man-made laws that were actually causing the enmity between Jewish believers and Gentile believers. Quote
Ron Amnsn Posted July 19, 2005 Posted July 19, 2005 Quote: benherndon said: We are not getting anywhere, Ron. WE are just arguing. You are teaching the Law. You know what the NT says about 'teachers of the law'? The 'teachers of the law' that you're thinking of were officials who were teaching not only the Law of Moses, but also the Jewish traditions and "oral law". Although the NT criticizes them for many errors, it does not criticize them for actually teaching the Law of Moses. Jesus said, "[:"brown"]Therefore every teacher of the law who has been instructed about the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.[/]" (Matt 13:52 NIV) Jesus also says good things about other people who teach the Law of Moses. "[:"brown"]Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.[/]" (Matt 5:19 NIV) And it's true! Look who's listed among the great men of faith in Hebrews 11-- Moses who taught the Law is there, and also David who gave these final instructions to Solomon: "[:"blue"]I am about to go the way of all the earth, So be strong, show yourself a man, and observe what the Lord your God requires: Walk in his ways, and keep his decrees and commands, his laws and requirements, as written in the Law of Moses, so that you may prosper in all you do and wherever you go, and that the Lord may keep his promise to me: ‘If your descendants watch how they live, and if they walk faithfully before me with all their heart and soul, you will never fail to have a man on the throne of Israel.[/]" (1Kings 2:2-4 NIV) David understood the connection between obeying the Law of Moses and loving God with all your heart and soul. Paul also confirms that David is a man after God's own heart. (Acts 13:22) Apparently, I'm in good company. Quote: benherndon said: I am not teaching the law of Moses because it is not applicable to the believing Christian unless he departs from respecting God and man, both. Where does the Scripture teach THAT? Paul told Timothy, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim 3:16-17 NIV) Paul was speaking of the Old Testament Scriptures. The Law of Moses is part of "All Scripture" so we know that Paul considered the Law of Moses suitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. What you are saying is quite different from what Paul said. Quote: benherndon said: Read the NT all alone without reading any other spiritual 'authority'. Read the NT through at least twice every year. I don't use any other spiritual 'authority' other than the Scriptures. It was while reading through the New Testament that I discovered that much of what I had believed was based on false premises. (What I believed at that point was very similar to what you've been trying to teach me.) Quote: benherndon said: Sorry--but what you are posting is so wrong on so many points I can't begin to straighten you out. When I try to teach you differently from what you already think, you argue with it before examining it with full intellectual honesty---like as if you are afraid of finding the full truth. Ben, if you're really trying to teach me, you'll need to start by answering the questions that I ask you, instead of ignoring them. You'll also need to support your teaching adequately with Scripture. The proof texts that you usually list are not enough, especially since your interpretation of those texts disagrees with numerous other passages of Scripture. You need to show how your doctrine agrees with the rest of Scripture. There is a method given in the New Testament that I use to test various interpretations of Paul's writings to see whether or not those interpretations are accurate. I have applied this New Testament test to everything you've tried to teach me. If what you say passes the test, I give it further consideration. If it fails, I don't. This New Testament method of testing is found in Acts 17:10-12. [:"blue"]As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.[/] (NIV) From this passage we see that Paul's gospel agreed completely with the Scriptures. If Paul's gospel had disagreed with the Scriptures, the Bereans would have rejected it. The events of this passage occured in a Jewish synagogue, so we can be certain that the Scriptures used by the Bereans were the Old Testament (not the New Testament, which wasn't available yet). The Bereans tested Paul's message to see if it agreed with the Old Testament and found that it did. Since Paul's gospel agreed with the Old Testament almost 2000 years ago, we can be confident that every true interpretation of Paul's message will still agree with the Old Testament today. Like the noble Bereans, we too need to compare every interpretation of Paul's teachings to the Old Testament Scriptures to see if the interpretation is true. Any interpretation that disagrees with the Old Testament would have been rejected by the Bereans, and we should reject it too. Let's apply the Bereans' test to your interpretation of Ephesians 2:14-15. If Paul had gone into the Jewish synagogue in Berea and taught, "The Jewish Messiah has abolished the Law of Moses" would the Bereans have accepted that message? Would the Bereans be able to confirm that message by examining the Old Testament Scriptures? No, that message is contrary to what the Old Testament Scriptures teach. So it is evident that your interpretation of Ephesians 2:14-15 is actually a mis-interpretation of what Paul wrote. The Bereans' method of testing teachings is confirmed by other New Testament passages as well: During Paul's trial before Felix Paul testified, "[:"blue"]I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets[/]." (Acts 24:12 NIV) Thus we know that any true interpretation of Paul's beliefs will agree with the Law and the Prophets. Paul told the Corinthians, "[:"blue"]Therefore I urge you to imitate me. For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.[/]" (1Cor 4:16,17 NIV) Thus we know that the true interpretations of Paul's teachings will agree with Paul's own lifestyle, which was Torah-observant. ("Then everybody will know...that you yourself are living in obedience to the law." Acts 21:24). Speaking of the Old Testament Scriptures Jesus said, "[:"brown"]These are the Scriptures that testify of me.[/]" (John 5:39 NIV) Quote
Clio Posted July 19, 2005 Posted July 19, 2005 I started to participate in this... and I've watched it for a while now. I just have a question... Why are you all making it so hard? None of this really matters. What matters is that Jesus of Nazareth, came in the flesh, atoned for sin at the cross with His Pure Blood, was raised in acceptance and ascended in Glory to be at the right hand of Abba Father. All that is required is to believe on Him, confess with your mouth that Abba Father did raise Him from the dead, and to be baptized in water and spirit. Then you walk out His will in Your life with happy obedience. Every one in this discussion is splitting hairs and sowing discord. Jesus is sufficient for all, and will lead each into all Truth, heart-convicting each along the way. Test what He leads you to against His Word, and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you. He may teach you different things, but you are each different people. Some of what I could share with you, would make you think you walked in the twilight zone... but True Jesus and the Holy Spirit have not only confirmed Their teachings, but given concrete evidence that I'm not out of my mind. Let Them teach you... for something that stretches your faith and understanding pray for Biblical confirmation plus two independent witnesses who have no idea what you wrestle with. You are not enemies here, but brothers, joint heirs with True Jesus in the House of the King. How does this brangling glorify Abba Father or True Jesus? It doesn't. It sows discord and opens the door to influence of the Adversary. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Ron Amnsn Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 Hi Clio, I've been pondering your comments. What is it about what we've been doing that seems to be "making it so hard"? Quote: Clio said: None of this really matters. What matters is that Jesus of Nazareth, came in the flesh, atoned for sin at the cross with His Pure Blood, was raised in acceptance and ascended in Glory to be at the right hand of Abba Father. All that is required is to believe on Him, confess with your mouth that Abba Father did raise Him from the dead, and to be baptized in water and spirit. Then you walk out His will in Your life with happy obedience. I like what you say about "happy obedience". I think that's what God has had in mind for us all along, in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. Which is why I think some of what we've been discussing really does matter. Was it possible to be happily obedient to the Law of Moses, or was it really just a "burden"? What does it mean to "believe on Him"? Do we merely assent to the fact that Jesus of Nazereth came, atoned, and ascended? (It seems even the demons would believe that.) Do we ascertain God's will for our life according to how our culture interprets the New Testament, even when that interpretation contradicts the Old Testament? I think there's more that's important than just what you covered in your summary, and judging by the length of Paul's epistles it seems he thought there was more to it as well. Quote: Every one in this discussion is splitting hairs and sowing discord. Jesus is sufficient for all, and will lead each into all Truth, heart-convicting each along the way. Test what He leads you to against His Word, and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you. One of the reasons I participate in these discussions is because I want to be sure that my beliefs are based solidly on Scripture, rather than on the opinions or traditions of men. If we only discussed our beliefs with people who agree with us, how would we find out which of our beliefs are solid, and which need further study? Disagreement isn't the same as discord, although it can lead to discord. Ben and I don't hate each other. Actually, we agree on a number of topics. We just happen to represent opposite ends of the spectrum regarding the Old Testament. His interaction here is valuable to me, especially when he finds a weakness in my position. Quote: How does this brangling glorify Abba Father or True Jesus? It doesn't. It sows discord and opens the door to influence of the Adversary. You're quite right that discord is not good. When we let our toes get stepped on and we start talking about each other, instead of discussing Scripture, then we need to take a break. Clio, you use the name "True Jesus" so I think you are aware that there is danger of being deceived or misled by things that aren't true. Sometimes determining what's really true may require some "hair-splitting". Shalom, -- Ron Quote
Clio Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 Paul liked to talk. He was a well-educated orator in the style of Roman education. That's why his epistles are so voluminous. They were also quite convoluted for the most part. Peter had this to say of Paul's writings in 2 Peter 3:15-16 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. There is much wisdom in Paul's writing, but as we are each different, and at different points in our walk with True Jesus, so the Holy Spirit teaches each differently from the same writings. The Old Testament, especially the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and portions of Deuteronomy are the books which lay out blessings, curses, and universal spiritual principles. In Numbers and Deuteronomy alone there are over 300 mentions of curses and blessings. Something that we as last day Christians need to pay close attention to. We all believe in blessings, but mention curses... and ooooo maybe it's dabbling in the occult.... or maybe they don't exist. I speak of True Jesus, because the demonic realm can counterfeit Him. And occasionally in the work I do, it is necessary to call on Him by His full title which confers spiritual authority and the legal spiritual right to do certain things in His True Name. If you do a study on names, their importance to the Middle Eastern cultures, and then the meaning of the names given to Jesus, the meaning of believing "on Him" becomes much plainer. I have such a completed effort somewhere.... The literal of the Torah Laws is no longer necessary, but the principle behind the literal is still applicable today. Hmmmmmm... let me give you a very specific application of the above statement. A little background is in order. My son, in March, robbed a convenience store with two other boys. All three boys are 16 and under, but the other two boys have juvenile records that are pages and pages long, while my son has never ever been in trouble of any kind before. He's always been responsible, he's always helped those in trouble, and been a model citizen. The response of those who know him, who also know what he's done, has been "CXXXX??????????????" Well, there's no denying he did it. There's no denying he deserves to be punished. And I was pretty freaked out at the time. I began praying and fasting for him, but I didn't know what to pray for... I mean... he did it. But to put him in the adult system .... As I prayed, I was impressed to pray for "Passover Mercy". Now my family and I do not keep passover. So the idea of Passover Mercy was totally foreign to me. But still I was asked to pray for Passover Mercy. So I asked for instruction, and a biblical basis. Helper was sent to instruct me. After several hours of discussion, what he taught me was this: A parent has the legal spiritual authority to ask for this kind of mercy for their child. And only one parent must deem the child to still be a child and not an adult. 3 days of preparation, walking according to the will of Abba Father is necessary, as is anointing with the Blood of True Jesus. In this case oil is not the correct symbol... grape juice is, for True Jesus specifically identified it as a symbol for His True Blood. The symbol for the Blood of True Jesus needed to be above the windows of his house (his eyelids), the doorposts (his shoulders), above the door (his forehead), and to drink what was left. Together we prayed, we fasted, and on the third day, with the spiritual authority as his mother, I anointed him and asked for Passover Mercy. Fast forward to court date... actually, wasn't even supposed to be sentencing... it was a change of plea hearing based on new evidence. The judge read the agreement that the DA and my son's attorney had worked out and said, "This is BS... this kid belongs in the adult system, I'm not accepting this, and on and on..." BOTH attorneys, the DA AND the defender, jumped in and convinced the judge to put him in the youth system...which after two hours of discussion the judge did. Once there, the difference in my son, and the rest of the kids, has been so marked and so pronounced, that they are moving him from detention to treatment, and are predicting he will be out in 6 months. THAT'S Passover Mercy. His record will be sealed, he's going to do most likely 6 months, AND True Jesus has his attention in a huge way. He was facing 10 years in the adult system and knew it. Passover is a literal example of a universal spiritual principle. My son told me that True Jesus is speaking to his heart and teaching him some very important things. He has his Bible, and is doing a study on extreme faith. Last Sabbath he told me that he is certain this is necessary, not just for him, but for his father to get the healing help he needs. This happens to be my heart-convicted belief too, but I had not shared it with him.... A second confirmation that True Jesus has this under control. Quick comment on Helper. He has only ever appeared when I prayed for help... hence calling him Helper. I believe him to be the same angel that pushed my car home for me also in March... One comment he made, that has stuck with me in a way that has fundamentally changed how I view Abba Father is this: If an earthly daughter can apply to her father for mercy and wisdom, how much more can a Daughter of the King of Kings ask for and expect from her Father in Heaven? In tears I cried out... but he is guilty! And that's when he said, that's why it's Passover Mercy. All Israel was also guilty of many of the same sins as the Egyptians. Your son will be passed over. He will not receive the ultimate punishment, but there are still consquences. It's an application of the spiritual principle represented by the literal law. It is the literality that was in all ways fulfilled in True Jesus. The spiritual principles will be valid and true for all time. For most Christians, the New Testament is all that is necessary and from it's teachings the whole and complete gospel and all they will ever need to know till Heaven is contained therein. It is only through the teaching of the Holy Spirit and the walking out in faith of His teachings that true understanding is reached. And it may not be the same understanding for two different people. It depends on what is going on in their life, where they are in their walk, and what Abba Father may be preparing them for. I know what I am being prepared for. True Jesus and the Holy Spirit have made it very plain. It will not be easy, but I know what it is. The conviction came during study and prayer... and I secreted it away in my heart. And then my husband, who is not a believer in dreams from Abba, woke me in the middle of the night, and repeated to me, that of which I am convicted, and broke down in tears because he wished to shield me from it. We are in the last days of the last days. Don't worry about this understanding, worry about the spiritual principles the literal law represents. Develop a relationship with True Jesus so intense, to be without Him causes physical pain. Develop a relationship so close that when He speaks to you, you KNOW it's Him. Ok... this isn't where I intended to take this post... but I've learned the hard way not to change anything when stuff like this comes pouring out of my fingertips. So I'm assuming True Jesus and the Holy Spirit thinks someone needs to read this. Welcome to my life... occasionally I feel like I'm walking in the twilight zone... but True Jesus always confirms with two witnesses and the Bible... and until He does, I don't ever talk about it. Sometimes I do think I'm out of my mind...and He always reminds me that's a good thing... it leaves more room for True Jesus mind to be in me. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Moderators Gerr Posted July 21, 2005 Author Moderators Posted July 21, 2005 Clio, it may seem like splitting hair to you, but there are false gospels & doctrines out there that are out to deceive if it were possible even the very elect. Paul in 1 Ti 4:1 even speaks of "doctrines of devils". I have seen it in this forum. There are minor differences in understanding Scripture that I don't quibble with much, but doctrines that undermine or contradict established truth? Then as Jude says, "...you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." Jude 3,4 And John says to "test the spirits [or doctrines for that matter] to see whether they are from God; because many false prophet have gone out into the world." 1 Jn 4:1 NASB To paraphrase EGW, so closely will the counterfeit resemble the truth that unless we are thoroughly grounded in the truth, we may be deceived. And by presenting my own understanding of Scripture, others can critique it and see if it could stand examination or not. Gerry Quote
Clio Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 That's true... but contentiousness doesn't change minds and hearts. Once it's laid out according to Scripture, then we need to let the Holy Spirit convict and change minds and hearts. We are called to be sowers not reapers... and it is my belief that neither you, Dr. Ben, nor Ron Ammundsen are in danger of failing to test any doctrine presented to you against the Bible. As long as Abba Father and True Jesus are first in your hearts, none of you will be deceived. Can you not allow the Spirit to convict rather than... continuing to beat each other up over the differences in understanding of the topic? All biblical truth has layer upon layer, and facet upon facet, to be revealed to the earnest Bible student through the Holy Spirit. We are told He will lead us into ALL truth... and sometimes He leads us to different parts of it at different times. Can you each trust the Spirit to lead the others into the Truth according to His timing? It may take years... but His timing is always perfect for the understanding of the soul being taught. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Ron Amnsn Posted July 22, 2005 Posted July 22, 2005 Quote: benherndon said: If you want to find out what most Christians think about a certain subject of some sort and if anybody can help you, find them and listen to what they say and THEN prayerfully study the NT about the subject. If you go elsewhere for any guidance, you are searching vainly. Historically, the concensus of mainstream Christianity hasn't been a reliable guide to what is true. The Protestant Reformation certainly improved the situation, but is the Reformation now finished? Mainstream Christians filter the New Testament through a large collection of faulty premises which distort their understanding of the New Testament. When you start with faulty premises, it's inevitable that you end up with a faulty understanding of the New Testament. Here are some of the faulty premises that are common among Christians. Some of these have surfaced during this discussion: God gave the Law in order to convince the Jews that everyone needs Grace instead. Jesus and/or Paul started a new religion. The Law was only intended for the Jews. The Law of Moses is the same as Jewish Law. Obedience to the Law is not compatible with God's grace. The Law of Moses is a burden. The Law was nailed to the cross. The Law of Moses created enmity between Jews and Gentiles. Christians are separate from the Israelites. The Old Testament Jews earned their salvation by keeping the Law. Jesus made lots of changes to the Law. Any attempt to obey the Law is a form of legalism (and should be avoided). It's too hard to follow the Law of Moses (so we shouldn't even try). Anyone who wants to follow the Law is denying that Jesus is the Messiah. The phrase "not under the law" means "not obedient to the Law". Jesus set aside the law by teaching that true obedience is a matter of the heart. The Jerusalem Council exempted Gentile believers from keeping the Law. The Law of Christ replaced the Law of Moses. Following the Spirit leads a person to disregard the Law. The goal of the book of Hebrews was to persuade Jewish Chistians not to turn back to the Law of Moses. If a person believes these faulty premises, they approach the New Testament from a perspective that is totally different than the perspective of the men who originally wrote and read the New Testament. Quote: The Bible is its own interpreter. The NT has authority over the OT concerning Christianity. The OT does not have authority over the NT concerning Christianity. When a person realizes that the New Testament church was using the Old Testament (rather than the New Testament, which wasn't yet available), and begins to use those same Old Testament Scriptures to interpret the New Testament (as the New Testament church did), they suddenly find that the New Testament affirms the Old Testament, rather than contradicting or over-ruling it. Quote
LifeHiscost Posted July 22, 2005 Posted July 22, 2005 Quote: Clio said: The literal of the Torah Laws is no longer necessary, but the principle behind the literal is still applicable today. The spiritual principles will be valid and true for all time. Don't worry about this understanding, worry about the spiritual principles the literal law represents. Develop a relationship so close that when He speaks to you, you KNOW it's Him. Clio [:"red"] "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" [/] John 10:27 KJV Your testimony was much appreciated, Clio. [:"red"] "The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD, And He delights in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; For the LORD upholds him with His hand." [/] Psalms 37:23,24 NKJV Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Clio Posted July 22, 2005 Posted July 22, 2005 *blushes* It's not something I wanted to share.... It's been a very private hurt.... Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
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